Council Debates Re-opening

On Monday, Premier Ford announced stage 2 re-opening for the region that includes Cobourg (see previous post) and on Monday night there was also a Council meeting.  Mayor John Henderson made it clear that he was not ready to act on the changes because the Provincial “regulations” had not yet been issued although they were expected within 48 hours.  But there were decisions to be made as requested by Community Services.  These included re-opening the Trailer Park (now called a campground), opening the Centennial Pool, allowing transient boaters and more.  But in the end, decisions were made plus Adam Bureau proposed encouraging restaurants to provide patio service in line with Provincial direction. It was clear however, that the ECG (Emergency Control Group) would be deciding many issues although Community services Director Dean Hustwick wanted Council to indicate if they felt strongly about anything – no doubt remembering how the beach closing was handled.

There was no organized action (e.g. a motion) that provided direction but some issues seem to have been decided – although this may get changed at any time:

  • The Pool will be re-opened subject to availability of lifeguards as hired by the YMCA – many summer students already have jobs.
  • The Campground will be re-opened subject to availability of sufficient staff and subject to the ECG agreeing that the “base camp” is no longer needed.  But the earliest date for opening would likely be early July.
  • The Marina will re-open June 12 including accepting Transients although these would likely be assigned a separate dock.  There will be a lift-in on June 13.  Staff noted that the Town cannot refuse a boater anchorage or access to safety when in distress or during inclement weather. Transient boaters may also need fuel and/or repairs, which must also be accommodated.
  • The Farmer’s market now accepts onsite orders as well as online orders.  Also non-food vendors are allowed.
  • The splash pad will likely re-open.
  • The Canteen will not open
  • Beach washrooms will not re-open – but Porta-Potties are being provided.

Most of these “decisions” were by default – Provincial rulings will be followed by Community Services staff with no specific input from Council – although Suzanne and John wanted to wait for a bit.

Officially decided – motions passed

  • Free Parking Town wide will continue until June 30 (Downtown will be free to August 31)
  • Free Transit will also continue until June 30.

Social distancing will still be required and frequent sterilizing is required.

Deputy Mayor Suzanne Séguin was not willing to agree to everything – she wanted to see the staff report on the beach re-opening promised for the June 22 meeting and she wanted more debate and public engagement.

Patios

Councillor Adam Bureau introduced a Notice of Motion – that’s a motion that will be debated at a future Council meeting.  The wording had to be revised given the changes from the Province but in essence Adam wanted to make it easier for Restaurants throughout the Town to provide service to outdoor patios per Provincial guidelines.  His original idea was to allow 2 parking spaces to be used in front of restaurants and cafes but that would not apply to many outside the Downtown area – so he’s now less specific.

Adam’s Notice of Motion

Subject: Restaurant, Pubs and Coffee shops Patio Extensions

Final (revised) text:

WHEREAS the Provincial Government has shut down Restaurants, Pubs and Coffee shops for inside seating and only open tor takeout; and

WHEREAS this will be very hard for them to be successful and employ staff and could possibly see our Restaurants, Pubs and Coffee shops close; and

WHEREAS this Council can show we support all businesses in Cobourg and this is one way Council can assist local businesses;

FURTHER THAT Staff streamline the Outdoor Patio Permit Process and issue Permits in an expedited manner; and

FURTHER THAT Council direct staff to come back with a report, regarding Council’s direction to allow for Restaurant, Pubs and Coffee shops Patio Extensions in the Town of Cobourg for Council’s approval.

Town Clerk Brent Larmer said that any new patios would need approvals from multiple agencies and Councillor Nicole Beatty was concerned about the safety of Patios that might extend into parking spaces.  Adam nevertheless said that his proposal was a start.

Note that the Covid-19 Status in Cobourg page is updated every day.  Red tags indicate recent changes.

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Gerinator
22 June 2020 3:52 pm

Kyle you want wall-to-wall try: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/toronto-beaches-were-slammed-over-the-weekend-trash-was-left-everywhere/vi-BB15PRhB?ocid=ACERDHP17

Its my belief that Council and principally Mayor Henderson are being pressured to open the beach. The above site is ‘truth to power’ and despite anyones belief in the good intentions of folks there is nothing that can combat this (Trinity Bellwood part 2) example of self-interest over common-interest. It is my hope that Council will not allow any edict from the Province to override their common sense and need to protect Cobourg and its citizens.

Deborah O'Connor
17 June 2020 10:27 pm

Any long term resident can tell us that wall-to-wall people enjoying our beach has been the reality for at least 70 years, and I’m sure it’s longer than that but since I’ve only been around for 71 years I won’t speculate. However I know from memory that this is true, so does our Wally Keeler.

I do know that in my parents’ youth there was a giant slide that landed the users right into the lake. Too bad they dismantled it, sounds like fun.

Read this and learn how our waterfront came to be, including that slide.
https://www.cobourghistory.ca/harbour/waterfront-history

Kyle
Reply to  Deborah O'Connor
18 June 2020 9:01 am

As a life long resident with nearly as much tenure, My reality certainly is not “wall-to-wall” people in the park and on the beach. Largest “crowds” were for the ball games and parking were not an issue as most people walked.
The wall-to-wall” issues started the summer of the public works strikes in Toronto and their parks were not useable. Our “free” park and beach were discovered and we all know the rest.
Cobourg Yesteryears has posted many photos and postcards of the park and beach and none show “wall-to-wall” people.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Kyle
18 June 2020 11:06 am

I recall wall2wall on a few summer weekends, and especially after the Saturday Night Dance held by Louis Stover. The Pav was rockin’ with well over a 100 kids at times, and during breaks from live bands, kids poured out onto the beach and into the water. It was exhilaration and many young bodies drenched in hormones. It was great fun. It was a great location and time to meet other outside teens, expand the gene pool for skinny dips and trailer park residents annoyed with the midnight noise flashed their headlights onto the frolicking nudes. I recall some of the playground equipment was dangerous which made it all the more exciting for kids and teens. The numbers from the GTA began to slowly rise with the 401 reaching Cobourg thereby making day trips easy — an hour out, an hour back.

Frenchy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
18 June 2020 11:37 am

A hundred at a time?
If we only expected 100 people at the busiest times we wouldn’t have to close the beach at all. That’s more properly described as almost empty, not wall2wall.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Frenchy
18 June 2020 2:07 pm

Try to comprehend what you read. I said it was wall2wall on a few summer weekends. And I am sure you can recall the size of the beach at that time — density.

Frenchy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
18 June 2020 8:30 pm

Sorry Wally Keeler, I thought you said “wall2wall on a few summer weekends, and especially after the Saturday Night Dance”
My comprehension skills still aren’t sharp enough to read between your words and lines and decipher what you really mean. I’m working on it.

Last edited 13 days ago by Frenchy
Wally Keeler
Reply to  Frenchy
19 June 2020 6:47 am

keep it up mon petit troll.

Wally Keeler
17 June 2020 8:25 am

https://www.facebook.com/events/632683534239111
Cobourg Waterfront Festival July 4, 2020. Note that 125 people are coming, and that 3.8K people have signaled interest in coming to Victoria Park for a bandshell concert.

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  Wally Keeler
17 June 2020 8:44 am

According to the Town, the 2020 Waterfront Festival has been cancelled.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
17 June 2020 11:02 am

That’s my understanding as well. There is also this on the Waterfront Festival Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/events/622968291833110

No indication of it being cancelled. Perhaps the Waterfront Festival should replace their Facebook page with a big red CANCELLED for SUMMER.

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  Wally Keeler
17 June 2020 11:23 am

If Dean Hustwick reads this Blog perhaps he can get one of his work-at-home staff to update it. All these updates should have been made when Council approved the cancellation of all sumner events.

Gerald Childs
Reply to  Wally Keeler
18 June 2020 8:16 pm

The FB page for the Waterfront festival does have a pinned post stating they are cancelled for this year. I would think a cover photo saying cancelled would catch peoples eye faster than their pinned post. Which states the festival is cancelled.

The pages that are linked above by Wally direct to an individual artist. They too could help matters if they posted their respective concert was cancelled. I do realize they are listed as /events on the Festival pages.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Gerald Childs
19 June 2020 7:06 am

I noticed several pieces of heavy equipment on the beach the past few days, pushing sand around. It would be a good idea if a grader engraved the word C.L.O.S.E.D in huge letters across the beach; then drone vid it. It would certainly get the attention of the news media for the audacity, the originality, the message. We’ve spent $$$ on posting signs on the perimeter of Town, so that those families who come from afar find out that they are unwelcome when they arrive on the threshold. That 30-second news item on a single day has the ability to penetrate Cobourg’s message into the GTA to prevent this. The Town can upload its drone vid to a Town site that everyone can link and post on their social media accounts thereby spreading the message continuously on the cheap. Community involvement that serves our interests. I do find it intriguing that Parks&Rec and Public Works have insufficient imagination to think outside the box of mediocrity.

Last edited 13 days ago by Wally Keeler
Wally Keeler
12 June 2020 3:25 pm

MCGA June 10, 10:09 PM “Enough of this nonsense…you claim a barrage of suicides, PROVE THAT STATEMENT. Provide verifiable evidence that there has been a dramatic uptick in suicides in our Town or County, over the past three months.”
 
MCGA, June 11, 10:31am: “Peddling fear is claiming suicides…where are those statistics. If you have none to show, you fabricated the argument to suit your purpose. Show us, from Canadian Public Health or Ontario Health sources how many have actually died from despair. When you come up empty the blog readership will understand that you are a fraud.”
 
As one who has experienced suicide up close and personal and on more than one occasion, the above statements indicate an abysmal ignorance of how suicide works. MCGA seems to think that there is a test by which authorities can determine the cause of a particular suicide or suicides and that authorities group them together quarterly to announce the basis of suicide. How simple it all is for MCGA, and for what? To make a petty point in an inane argument. MCGA is the most bloated fear-monger on this blog.

Frenchy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
12 June 2020 8:00 pm

And just how do you know that MCGA hasn’t suffered the same experiences as you? You aren’t the only person in the world who has gone through this, and perhaps some more than once or twice.
It’s always just about you Wally Keeler.

Beach Lover
Reply to  Wally Keeler
22 June 2020 3:04 pm

From a new report by Sick Kids Hospital: “ The report says while self-isolation and stay at home measures have helped to “flatten the curve” they have also had unintended consequences on children’s behaviour and mental health, such as depression, exposure to domestic violence, child abuse and neglect and even suicide.” The report also cites studies saying that children are not the super-spreaders they were originally thought to be. Rates of transmission and infection in children are actually quite low. Yet they’re the ones suffering by closing the beaches and playgrounds for such an extended period of time. https://www.google.com/amp/s/toronto.citynews.ca/2020/06/17/sickkids-report-recommends-children-return-to-school-in-september/amp/

beach lover
11 June 2020 4:46 pm

Is it not possible for Council to come up with some COVID-19 precautions so residents can enjoy Victoria Beach prior to August 30, 2020?

  • Wasaga Beach as well as Balm Beach, Bluewater Beach, Cawaja Beach, Concession 13 West Beach, Jackson Park, Lafontaine Beach and Woodland Beach are all opening June 12 with COVID-19 beach-use restrictions and beach “ambassadors”.
  • Sauble Beach allows locals to access the water for swimming.
  • Four beaches in Port Stanley are scheduled to open on June 22nd.
  • The City of Kingston plans to have splash pads, beaches and swimming open in time for residents to enjoy by Canada Day.
  • Others such as Grand Bend are aiming for July 1st.

There’s already a fencing installed so it seems pretty straightforward to be able to safely monitor the number of people on the beach in Cobourg to ensure physical distancing. https://www.simcoe.com/news-story/10013425-beaches-in-tiny-township-opening-with-covid-19-precautions/

CiW
Reply to  beach lover
12 June 2020 8:20 am

Ok Beach Lover, if you want to open the beach you go down there and maintain social distancing within the herd that migrates from Toronto every weekend.

Merry Mary
Reply to  CiW
12 June 2020 4:10 pm

How significant of these migrations are designated as Torontonians when there are seven beaches on the shores of Lake Ontario within Toronto? How many, on a hot and humid day, really drive east 100+k to Victoria Beach?

Fact Checker
Reply to  Merry Mary
12 June 2020 5:53 pm

Merry Mary:
Clearly you have not been to the Cobourg beach on a hot summer weekend. The place is wall to wall people…estimated at 3-4K, and very few are Cobourgers. The likely reason they are willing to drive 100+Km is that the Toronto beaches are very crowded, dirty, etc. There are some great beaches in Pickering, but it seems few people know about them

Merry Mary
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 8:50 am

The Toronto Beaches are no more crowded and dirtier and so forth than Victoria Beach. And I have been to Victoria Beach on a hot summer weekend and the people come from the north, east and the west- from places other than Toronto.

Informed
Reply to  Merry Mary
12 June 2020 7:25 pm

At least 500 id say

beach lover
Reply to  CiW
16 June 2020 10:25 am

The dozen or more other beaches in Ontario that have opened so far have managed the “migration” of people from outside their communities by controlling the parking lots. For example in Barrie, the waterfront parking lots are reserved for Barrie residents. Other beaches have closed their parking lots completely. Instead, Cobourg is offering free parking to everyone. Doesn’t make sense to me. Or, make the beach accessible for walk through only. Go swim and come back out.

Man of La Mancha
10 June 2020 10:05 pm

 
 
Well, my dog got a haircut today. He even went to the Vet to get his teeth cleaned; sat on a patio.. Someday, I’ll get my haircut and maybe I’ll go to the Dentist. Maybe I’ll try and get o cocktail on King St—if Council stops being scared by CBC and CNN and allows me to.

Mark
Reply to  Man of La Mancha
11 June 2020 7:14 am

typical lack of knowledge !
the town council has nothing to do if you can get a haircut, go to a dentist or get a drink

Informed
Reply to  Man of La Mancha
12 June 2020 9:01 am

You are the reason the bylaws and regulations are in place.

Frenchy
10 June 2020 4:44 pm

Do we have any restaurant, cafe or bar owners on this blog? If so, maybe they can chime in on the idea of opening patios only and at only 30% capacity. Can you make any money under those guidlines?

Mark
Reply to  Frenchy
11 June 2020 7:23 am

My wife is in the personal service industry
The facemask she wears, they $7 for 50 in January, now they are &69 for 50, she gave her supply away to nurse in March
Hand sanitizer which she did not supply before $90 for 4l
instead of 8 clients a day , it down to 4
we will see if it worth it

Sam
Reply to  Frenchy
11 June 2020 1:15 pm

Obviously better than nothing?
I thought it was expected to be 50% anyway?

Gerinator
10 June 2020 3:20 pm

“Provincial rulings will be followed by Community Services staff with no specific input from Council…” why is that? We have a Quebec Premier apologizing all over the place for their Gov performance (as measured by infected + dead); why do we have to abide by our Premiers gamble (this is a health over economy gambit). Will we be getting his apologies given the trend in increasing confirmed cases? Expecting our community to deal with the influx of persons (having no ties to this community) and managing (physical distancing + counting members within groups + enforcements) these persons behaviors is just not reasonable. Yes we have assets e.g. the beach. However we have greater assets that need to be protected and these are the citizens of Cobourg. This gamble on the part of the Province is essentially a willingness to accept collateral illness/deaths in order to get some economic benefit (not sized) and political strokes from persons suffering from cabin fever and yes in few instances of depression. I ask – what/where is the greater good.

Rob
Reply to  Gerinator
10 June 2020 4:04 pm

What about the effects of isolation on the economy, social structures, personal finances, small business, mental health including suicide, addiction and abuse Gerinator? That is also health isn’t it or do you accept that as collateral death and illness? Just for clarity, the trend line in the Province is going downwards as it relates to new cases, hospitals are closing Covid units (because there aren’t any cases) so please stop pushing the fear narrative. Protect the vulnerable as best you can but otherwise healthy people are dying indirectly from Covid
 
 

Last edited 21 days ago by Rob
MCGA
Reply to  Rob
10 June 2020 10:09 pm

Enough of this nonsense…you claim a barrage of suicides, PROVE THAT STATEMENT. Provide verifiable evidence that there has been a dramatic uptick in suicides in our Town or County, over the past three months.
Additionally, a declining trend line does not equate to a zeroing of risk. You see no risk for yourself, fine. But do not tell others that decline means safe.
As you are expert at epidemology risk assessment: how many COVID19 tests have been administered in Cobourg? How many in the County? If you don’t know, how do you measure the real risk to the Town’s citizens.

Dubious
Reply to  Rob
11 June 2020 8:44 am

Proof? The links that you provided are simply the claims of advocate groups with a vested interest in the issue. More projections from models that prove nothing!

Rob
Reply to  Dubious
11 June 2020 9:28 am

Dubious, you hurt my head. You should continue to self isolate (please) – I’ll be having a socially distanced dinner and beverage on a patio this weekend. 🙂

Dubious
Reply to  Rob
11 June 2020 10:06 am

Is headache an early symptom of COVID19?

Rob
Reply to  Dubious
11 June 2020 1:41 pm

Dubious…I actually had a laugh!
Thnx

Sam
Reply to  Dubious
11 June 2020 1:29 pm

I see. The Cobourg Taxpayers Association (CTA) Online Petition that got the Beach Closed?
Are they not an Advocacy Group with their own vested interest?
Like I said, the CTA Online Petition that was supposedly signed (sic) ONLINE by 1200 COBOURG residents was hardly a majority of the town folk, as best I can tell, unless the other 19,000 had already died from Covid19.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Sam
11 June 2020 5:00 pm

The “vested interest” of the CTA is to make Cobourg a great place for themselves, their neighbours and all the other residents.

Last edited 20 days ago by Ken Strauss
ben
Reply to  Ken Strauss
12 June 2020 5:43 am

There are many Citizens who would disagree with your ideological approach Ken!

Cobourg taxpayer
Reply to  ben
12 June 2020 10:05 pm

And many who do agree with the CTA approach

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  Sam
11 June 2020 5:45 pm

How many residents told Council to keep it open? I didn’t realize that all 19,400 residents were of age.

Now you want to give infants a vote?

You may wish to check out voter turnout in the 2018 election.

I think in the circumstances the people of Cobourg did an outstanding and commendable job at making their views known.

It is obvious when one attacks an organization that you have no first hand knowledge about, that you are unable to defend your position with logic or reasoned arguments.

Informed
Reply to  Sam
11 June 2020 7:07 pm

Take out infants,children and seniors without internet then 1200 people may be a pretty good number.

Paul Pagnuelo
Reply to  Informed
11 June 2020 8:25 pm

6,480 out of 14,384 eligible voters cast a ballot in the 2018 Cobourg municipal election.

Even the Mayor said considering all forms of contact with Council it was the largest public engagement response ever.

Given all this took place in a week, a very impressive response.

Last edited 20 days ago by Paul Pagnuelo
ben
Reply to  Paul Pagnuelo
12 June 2020 5:45 am

Of course he would say that he has no institutional memory. The petition to end train whistles had over 2000 actual signatures not web-generated clicks!

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  ben
12 June 2020 6:20 am

The Mayor’s comments also included emails, letters and phone calls Council members received.

How long did it take to collect the 2,000 signatures to stop the train whistles?

We also used to vote back then in person and not by phone or Internet.

MiriamM
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
12 June 2020 10:01 am

The train whistle matter was a very big deal with benefits rippling throughout the community. Ever try to change the mind of a railway company, make that two? I agree with Ben that there have been bigger petitions and actions of local citizen activism in the past on local matters. Commitment, not typically speed.   My point here is change to benefit the community needs citizens to be involved. When the decision makers, like a locally elected Council, are also sympathetic with the view expressed by citizens it is not the number but the cause. And, the cause is lead by a ‘champion’ who can be a citizen, politician or even staff person who expresses support for a delegation ask at a Council meeting. For example, the apparent night and day turnaround by Council on the painting of bike lanes on Cobourg streets seemed to make the Council decision happen in a blink of an eye. Painting bike lanes on streets was such a change from the traditional way of viewing our streets, there was resistance and concern among some decision makers they would lose support among voters. But the advocacy by citizens for safer streets had gone on for… Read more »

ben
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
12 June 2020 6:38 pm

Not long and all were door to door and hand-signed. A lot more work than the slacktivism used in this one. But as Miriam has mentioned the effort took more than a couple of years in planning and coordination. the petition was the major part of the effort, and took place as the final part of the process, but the main work was done by a dedicated committee of people who had the tenacity to fight the railways.
 
Of course the main reason it succeeded was that the committee had the brains to structure the campaign pressure during an election campaign, a couple of would be politicians – no names no packdrill, made it part of their campaigns.

Last edited 19 days ago by Ben
Fact Checker
Reply to  Informed
11 June 2020 11:15 pm

Informed: The final numbers are 1,370 Cobergers, 241 Northumberland, 51 Other. Total 1,662
 
Sam: 1,370 out of 6,480 (voters, 2018 municipal election) is a much better measure of the petition’s
representation.

Fact Checker
Reply to  Sam
11 June 2020 11:25 pm

Sam:
If the CTA has a “vested interest”, it means that the organization “profits” from the result.
Please tell us Sam, how does the CTA profit from closing the Cobourg beach?
You also suggest that the “1200??” petition signatures (actually 1,370 Cobourgers 1,662 total) are false or fraudulent. That’s a serious charge! What proof do you have?

Leweez
Reply to  Sam
12 June 2020 10:42 am

All in all, I was glad to see the CTA win this battle.
Felt sorry for them,as they have lost every other battle

CobourgPerson
Reply to  Leweez
12 June 2020 11:34 am

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
12 June 2020 11:49 am

CP: Your comment implies that the CTA is wrong most of the time. Please provide a list where, in your opinion, the CTA was wrong

Rob
Reply to  Fact Checker
12 June 2020 3:08 pm

I think he meant, even a blind squirrel gets a nut every once in a while….

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  CobourgPerson
12 June 2020 1:02 pm

Tell us CP what you have contributed to public engagement and improving life for all residents in Cobourg.

Name just one thing you have accomplished.

Maybe you should replace that dollar store watch with one that knows the difference between day and night.

Fact Checker
Reply to  Leweez
12 June 2020 11:47 am

Leweez:
 
Good to see your support for this “cause” and that you support the CTA’s effort on this.
You state that the CTA has lost every other battle. Please list the battles that, in your opinion, the CTA has lost.

Last edited 20 days ago by Fact Checker
Leweez
Reply to  Fact Checker
12 June 2020 2:19 pm

Maybe I did not use the proper wording, the CTA hasn’t lost every other battle, but I do not know of another one that they have won

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Leweez
12 June 2020 2:49 pm

They won the issue of not having a waterpark off the beach.

Last edited 19 days ago by Wally Keeler
Fact Checker
Reply to  Leweez
12 June 2020 2:52 pm

Leweez:
Fair enough. Many of the CTA’s projects are low key or in the background, thereby often not being blatantly in the “public’s eye”. Visit the CTA’s website to see some of the projects they have been involved in. Also keep in mind that their type of projects rarely involve an “instant” win. It is about education, changing mindsets and culture. It is a long term game. You could subscribe to their newsletter, to be kept up to date on their projects and issues. Perhaps even make a donation.

Leweez
Reply to  Fact Checker
12 June 2020 3:09 pm

Having looked the CTA’s website briefly, it seems as if they have a real “bee in their bonnet” for Lakefront Utilities?

Cobourg taxpayer
Reply to  Leweez
12 June 2020 10:14 pm

If it forces all levels of government and connected entities such as LU to be fully transparent then yes. Why will they not publish salaries?

Leweez
Reply to  Cobourg taxpayer
12 June 2020 10:29 pm

I’m guessing this is a rhetorical question?
If not I guess they do not disclose salaries because no one is forcing them to

Fact Checker
Reply to  Leweez
13 June 2020 12:25 am

Leweez:
Regarding HOLDCO, LUI and LUSI, are you suggesting that the CTA’s concerns are unwarranted and there are no issues with the HOLDCO Group?

Leweez
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 7:27 am

No, I stated that the CTA seems to have put a target on the the back of Lakefront Utilities.
My knowledge of this Holdco group is minimal

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Leweez
13 June 2020 9:54 am

Some months ago Lakefront Utilities asked to borrow $2.4M. I presented a delegation to Council describing numerous problems with their proposal including no information on how to repay the loan without much higher water rates, ignoring lower cost alternatives and errors of arithmetic that significantly affected their analysis. Councillor Darling asked that they address the deficiencies in their proposal. Derek Paul, head of LUSI, then sent a letter to Council saying that he “stands behind” the original proposal and again asking for millions of dollars.
 
It is this sort of disrespect for Council and residents that “puts a target on their back” from the CTA perspective.

CobourgPerson
Reply to  Ken Strauss
13 June 2020 10:22 am

Respect goes both ways. Perhaps LUSI and its Board were not happy with the lack of respect Cobourg Council had for LUSI staff and the Board during the issue with William St. Beer.

Last edited 19 days ago by Cobourg Person
Canuck Patriot
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 10:49 am

If anybody was disrespectful in that debate it was LUSI’s staff and Board, not Council. LUSI provides a contracted service for water to the Town. The Town owns the asset, LUSI is the service provider.

If the Town owns the asset and is responsible for providing residents with water, Council should set the policy and be the final decision maker on customer billing disputes. The LUSI Board has no business establishing a client’s policy.

LUSI was blinded by the position it is always right. It ignored common sense and all data that proved it was wrong. Even now it refuses to admit its wrong on the water meter replacement issue.

Perhaps the reasoning for your being a LUSI cheerleader is that you’re looking for a comfy Board position that pays.

Leweez
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
13 June 2020 11:26 am

Ok, I got a question, if the town owns the water asset and has the responsibility to provide water to its residents, why does the Town contract it to Lakefront?
The Town does not contract the sewage portion as far as I know.
If the Town took over this responsibility, then you could see their salaries? Yes or no?
Sorry have a few questions😀

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Leweez
13 June 2020 12:01 pm

Yes, the salary for all municipal employees earning over $100K is public. See the CTA website for Cobourg’s numbers. By being a contractor LUSI salaries are hidden.

Leweez
Reply to  Ken Strauss
13 June 2020 12:17 pm

So, why doesn’t the CTA bring the idea forward that the Town take over the water portion?
One would think there is a duplication of paid positions currently between Lakefront Utilities and the Town?

Fact Checker
Reply to  Leweez
13 June 2020 12:56 pm

Leweez; Good to see that you have your thinking cap on and are asking good questions. Prior to 2000, Electrical distribution, water and sewer were handled by the Cobourg Public Utilities Commission; a wholly contained business unit of the Town. CPUC salaries were subject to the Sunshine list disclosure. In 2000, as mandated by the provincial government of the day, the municipal public utility commissions were deregulated and the “electrical distribution operation was “bought” by an incorporated company LUI…part of the HOLDCO Group established at the time and owned by the Town.   For various unknown (undisclosed) reasons, the electrical and water system staffs were transferred to LUSI. LUI has no employees and contracts its staff needs to LUSI. The sewer system and its operation remained with the Town and is now part of the public works department. Waterworks is a wholly contained business unit of the Town. The Town holds the water purification license and is accountable to the provincial government for meeting water standards. The Town owns all of Waterworks assets, liabilities, revenues and expenses. Waterworks has no employees. The Town contacts with LUSI to provide the staff needed to run Waterworks.   Had the former CPUC water… Read more »

CobourgPerson
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
13 June 2020 11:52 am

https://www.lakefrontutilities.com/annual-report/
 
The four LUSI Board members were paid $12,600 or an average of $3,150 per year. I don’t consider $3,150 to be a “comfy Board position”.
 

Ken Strauss
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 11:58 am

They were paid $3,150 for how many hours work? One meeting a month? That pay sounds pretty good relative to what we pay our Councillors for far more responsibility and far more hours of work.

CobourgPerson
Reply to  Ken Strauss
13 June 2020 12:14 pm

Councillors are underpaid. Kudos to LUSI for appropriately paying its Board. You get what you pay for!

https://cobourgtaxpayers.ca/2018/05/15/you-get-what-you-pay-for/

Ken Strauss
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 12:23 pm

We’ve certainly tried to raise Councillor salaries! Councillors are currently paid less than Ontario minimum wage.

Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 7:40 pm

CP:
Are the Cobourg tax payers and utility rate payers getting quality work from LUSI’s board?
As Ken Strauss clearly demonstrates in his analysis, there is no evidence that the review & approval of the loan request by LUSI’s board contributed any added value. How did those errors, bad assumptions, flawed and missing analysis get by them?
 
https://cobourgtaxpayers.ca/2020/02/18/cta-comments-on-lakefront-water-meter-replacement-proposal/

CobourgPerson
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 9:45 pm

I try not to form an opinion based on one piece of work. I think it makes sense to analyze the entire body of work. Their annual report indicates reasonable water and electric rates, low operating costs, and good reliability. That also suggests an organization (guided by the Board of Directors and management) that is well run and efficient.

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 10:16 pm

If you look back over history the annual water rate increases are obscene, their Board provides no value added analysis or background, asks no questions and is not interested in controlling customer costs. Nor for that matter are senior management. Salaries area hidden from public view. There is no accountability although Holdco and its subsidiaries are owned by the Town and by extension its residents..

You must be drinking their magic Kool-aid to claim they are well run and efficient.

Did the water tower need to be repainted, were the lining repairs planned and reserves established, has Watson completed an updated study?

Their performance doesn’t support your hollow claims. Cheerleading doesn’t win an argument. Facts do and you are ignoring them.

Last edited 18 days ago by Canuck Patriot
CobourgPerson
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
13 June 2020 10:59 pm

You didn’t present facts. You presented an opinion. Here are the facts:

1. Water rates are the lowest in the area.
2. Electricity rates are the 7th lowest in the province.
3. Electric operating costs are the 5th lowest in the province.
4. Reliability is top 10 in the province.

Those are all facts. I’m not cheerleading, I’m simply stating that people should examine the entire organization before forming an opinion. You are doing the opposite. You have a hatred for Lakefront and consequently are ignoring anything they do well.

Last edited 18 days ago by Cobourg Person
Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
14 June 2020 9:52 pm

CP: Yes, water rates are low. Due, as Mr. Paul admitted, to the “deferral” of many capital repairs and replacements over the past 10 or more years. Now it’s catch up time and it’s a good bet that the water rates will increase significantly. As noted in another comment, since 2015 the rates have increased 167% and will double by 2022.   Regarding point 2, LUSI has nothing to do with electricity rates. Those are set by the province. The rates for electricity delivery are set by the Ontario Energy Board (OEB) based on rate applications provided by the electricity distributor, LUI.   Similarly, regarding point 3, LUSI has nothing to do with electric operating cost. The cost of producing electricity is the responsibility of the generators, LUSI is not involved. The cost of local electricity distribution is LUI’s responsibility, not LUSI’s   Point 4: reliability for which utility and what is the reporting source?   You do not seem to be aware that the water utility service is not provided by LUSI. It is provided by WaterWorks, a Town of Cobourg business unit. The Town owns all of the assets, liabilities, revenue and expenses. LUSI is simply a hired… Read more »

Last edited 17 days ago by Fact Checker
Canuck Patriot
Reply to  Fact Checker
14 June 2020 10:34 pm

I would say a very accurate and balanced position and analysis. FC an excellent summary of the good, bad and areas that require better financial management.

Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 11:00 pm

Which board are you talking about? Certainly not LUSI’s board.
LUSI doesn’t put out an annual report and has nothing to do with electric rates. The water rates have increased 9% per year since 2015…. that’s 167%. If the rates increase 9% per year for the next two years (2022), the rates will have doubled since 2015.

Last edited 18 days ago by Fact Checker
CobourgPerson
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 11:08 pm

https://www.lakefrontutilities.com/annual-report/

Holdco releases an annual report which also includes LUSI. There is also an analysis of water rates. You should review.

Leweez
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 11:38 pm

Cobourg person, you seem to know quite a bit about Lakefront Utilities, almost so much that you might be a member of their senior management.
Simply release senior management salaries and the CTA might go away

Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
15 June 2020 4:04 pm

With regards to Waterworks, Holdco’s annual report is of little use. LUSI is NOT WaterWorks. LUSI is a hired contractor.

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  Fact Checker
15 June 2020 9:44 am

I wonder what the service level, recommendations, costs and rates would be if the Waterworks contract was put out to competitive bid with, say, the Ontario Clean Water Agency.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
15 June 2020 10:30 am

A public tender might be a good way to remove some disrespectful and possibly overpaid staff from the Town’s payroll!

Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 1:01 pm

CP;
The salaries of the board are not the issue. It is the compensation of LUSI’s senior management.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 11:06 am

Perhaps, CobourgPerson. LUSI is employed by Cobourg’s residents (and Cobourg’s Councillors) rather than the other way around. In my experience disrespect for ones employer and ignoring requests is a career limiting attitude.

Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 12:29 pm

CP:
With regard to WSBC, in what way did Council disrespect LUSI staff and its Board?

CobourgPerson
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 12:45 pm

1. The resolution to refund WSB was not included in the agenda and therefore was not available to the public. The resolution was obviously prepared prior to WSB’s presentation but was not included on the agenda. I’m sure you can agree about the lack of transparency.

2. Council did not hear from LUSI before agreeing to refund WSB. A representative from WSB did not present to Council until requested by Council. Of course LUSI had multiple opportunities to present but so did WSB and they didn’t until requested. Logically it would have made sense for Council to want to hear both sides. Especially if planning to override senior management and the Board. Again, lack of transparency.

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 12:56 pm

Not all motions are placed on the agenda in advance and those that are at times are amended. WSB made every effort to plead its case before both LUSI and Council.

Your argument about lack of transparency by Council is completely spurious.

Remind me should you ever feel qualified and decide in 2022 to run for Council not to vote for you. Definitely not the kind of representative we need to look after the public interest.

Last edited 19 days ago by Canuck Patriot
Fact Checker
Reply to  CobourgPerson
13 June 2020 11:44 pm

CP;
There was no lack of transparency on Council’s part.

  1. The “ask” was contained in the WSBC’s presentation.This was published in the agenda and was publicly available prior to the meeting. Councillor’s typically prepare several motions in advance for each agenda item to cover off the various alternatives. Delegation action motions are rarely published in the agenda. They are made in response to the delegation and the subsequent discussion. Not all delegations result in a delegation action motion.
  2. LUCI submitted a written presentation to Council on July 22. They could have also made a delegation to Council at any time but chose not to. In April/May 2019, the WSBC was approved to make a delegation to Council. WSBC withdrew the delegation at the request of the Town. In August 2019, the WSBC was “invited” to make a delegation to council to respond to LUSI’s July 22 submission.
  3. ……for Council to want to hear both sides. Especially if planning to override senior management….You seem to suggest that the result was predetermined. Do you have evidence to support this notion?
Fact Checker
Reply to  Leweez
13 June 2020 12:24 pm

Leweez;
“putting a target on their backs” has the connotation that the Holdco Group is targeted unjustly and without cause. Is this the context that you intend?
The Holdco Group, competently provides for the technical operation of the electrical distribution company and the Town’s water purification system. The same can not be said about the financial and business management. There are numerous examples of “things gone wrong”
A “target on their backs” perhaps. Justified and warranted, that is the question. Read through the information online and assess this question from your perspective.
 

Last edited 19 days ago by Fact Checker
Leweez
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 12:33 pm

So you are saying that the management portion at Lakefront Utilities is not doing their job

Fact Checker
Reply to  Leweez
13 June 2020 2:15 pm

Leweez,
You’ve started the journey of discovery, continue with it. Read the articles and presentations. Assess the information and make your decision. That’s the assessment that counts, not mine.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 2:39 pm

Leweez, if you are interested in the quality of LUSI’s proposals you can read my detailed comments together with Mr. Paul’s response at https://cobourgtaxpayers.ca/2020/02/18/cta-comments-on-lakefront-water-meter-replacement-proposal/

Leweez
Reply to  Fact Checker
13 June 2020 4:41 pm

I will assess another day, too nice out to sit inside. Enjoy your day

MCGA
Reply to  Rob
11 June 2020 10:31 am

Peddling fear is claiming suicides…where are those statistics. If you have none to show, you fabricated the argument to suit your purpose.
Show us, from Canadian Public Health or Ontario Health sources how many have actually died from despair. When you come up empty the blog readership will understand that you are a fraud.

Rob
Reply to  MCGA
11 June 2020 11:40 am

MC? – unfortunately we can’t slip a Q-Tip into an individuals sinus cavity and diagnose the reason for their suicide and these statistics will take time to compile, likely years; however you are overly focussed on suicide, although I referenced mental health as an overarching issue related to the pandemic – perhaps you don’t understand the human condition, I’m really not sure. But try to remember it isn’t black and white. Calling me a fraud is the equivalent to liar, liar, pants on fire…give me a break.
 
https://globalnews.ca/news/6906456/coronavirus-stress-mental-health-canada/
 
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/200527/dq200527b-eng.htm
 
https://www.thestar.com/podcasts/thismatters/2020/05/12/canada-could-face-a-mental-health-echo-pandemic-in-the-aftermath-of-covid-19.html
 
https://www.benefitscanada.com/news/56-of-canadians-say-coronavirus-negatively-impacting-mental-health-survey-145938

Sam
Reply to  MCGA
11 June 2020 1:23 pm

If you worry about the beach. Don’t go there.
If you are worried about Restaurant Patios don’t go there.
Better still cocoon yourself to be totally safe but let those that want to get on with their life.
1200 Cobourg residents got the beach closed. Wow that is democracy!
I assume that for safety now you are not stepping foot outside Cobourg. If you do you are being hypocritical.

JimT
Reply to  Rob
11 June 2020 12:34 pm

“Across much of the United States and Europe, the coronavirus has been spreading less rapidly than many people feared…Over the past six weeks — as communities have started to reopen, Americans have flocked to beaches and lakes and European schools have reopened — the number of new cases has continued falling in many places.
 
Across the Northeast and Midwest of the U.S., they’re down more than 50 percent, and often much more, since May 1. Nationwide, weekly deaths have fallen for six weeks in a row. And Europe “seems to have turned a corner…”
The New York Times  

Last edited 21 days ago by JimT
Canuck Patriot
Reply to  JimT
11 June 2020 1:17 pm

According to the Palm Beach Post, a record-high 1,698 more people were diagnosed with COVID-19 in Florida on Thursday offering further evidence that the partial reopening of the state’s economy and beaches last month might be causing a resurgence of the deadly disease.
 
Anyone thinking we’ve turned the corner, needs to use a little common sense.

LMG
Reply to  Canuck Patriot
14 June 2020 1:30 pm

Cover up the sign on 401!!!!

Sam
Reply to  Rob
11 June 2020 1:18 pm

Absolutely spot on.
 
We are all going to be scared to death while King Street dies but other towns and cities survive.

Fact Checker
Reply to  Sam
12 June 2020 11:55 am

Sam;
What does the economic health of King St W have to do with the beach being closed? Surely you don’t believe that tired old Cobourg myth that the beachers spend money “downtown”. If you have proof otherwise, I’m sure that Draper readers will be very interested in your information.

Kevin
Reply to  Gerinator
11 June 2020 8:04 am

I agree, it is a cost/benefit thing. To me the biggest problem in making decisions is the unknown. This virus is too new to know the long term impact. So far this week I have read/heard the WHO providing, and then trying to clarify, information about asymptomatic spread. There is an increase in cases among 20 to 34 year old people in some areas of Ontario. Is this going to be a big problem? Several years from now we will have a much better idea if the decisions made today were the right ones. As a society we accept certain safety device such as seat belts and airbags. There is a cost to these devices and a benefit to using them. There would be a cost to have 5-point seat belts and roll bars in passenger vehicles. We do not use these because the benefit is not high enough to justify the cost. We can only guess the best course of action between safety and cost at the moment. Maybe this virus will go away and things will return to normal. Maybe it will be with us for a very long time and we will all wear face masks, accepting… Read more »

Rob
10 June 2020 2:45 pm

Business needs help not barriers. I see a number of members of Council who are proposing and who are open to ideas to move things forward and I see almost as many who are doing the opposite. The Star yesterday “Toronto Public Health says “No link between Trinity Bellwoods crowds and COVID-19 cases.” WHO is apparently confused about the spread of Covid by asymptomatic people. The Province is (cautiously) reopening and the Town needs to make every effort to do the same thing and stop buying into the fear mongering perpetuated by individuals and interest groups.

MCGA
Reply to  Rob
11 June 2020 7:48 am

What you fail to recognize or understand is that this virus has only been in circulation for about 6 months. In that short time, medical knowledge has only had a chance to advance so far. As with HIV/AIDS, SARS, MERS, EBOLA, ZIKA, WEST NILE, and other disease outbreaks there are suppositions and reversals of conclusions along the knowledge path until a medical consensus is formed. Until they get there, PRUDENCE is, or should be, the path forward. As I read what you have posted I see someone shouting for money while others are asking for health and safety. I hope that is as clear to everyone else.

Rob
Reply to  MCGA
11 June 2020 9:36 am

Don’t patronize me MCGA. There must be a balance in reopening the Province – that is what you FAIL to see. Reopening isn’t only about money it is also about health…it isn’t as black and white as you are trying to portray it.

Sam
Reply to  MCGA
11 June 2020 1:38 pm

Prudence is the right word but let us not kill the economy whilst being prudent.
There will be no future if the economy collapses a la 1932/3 or worse.
Businesses need to survive and people need to work.
We can’t all be employed by the Government at various levels like the approx. 50% that currently are!
Lest you forget the 1932 Depression was only dug out by WWII and no one wants that to be our savior this time surely?

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Sam
11 June 2020 4:56 pm

Lest you forget, the 1920-21 depression recovered without government intervention (government spending was actually reduced) and brought boom times.

Cobourg taxpayer
Reply to  Rob
12 June 2020 10:19 pm

You must be reading different news reports then I have because I have read the number of coronavirus cases in 20-30 year olds has begun to increase particularly in Toronto.

Nicole Beatty
10 June 2020 10:34 am

Hi John,
Thank you as always for covering Council meetings in such detail. A point of clarification: “Councillor Nicole Beatty was concerned about the safety of Patios that might extend into parking spaces.
I did not express this concern. I am supportive of extended patios. In fact, I asked for staff to consider Port Hope and Clarington as case studies when preparing their staff report.

PeterRidout
10 June 2020 10:24 am

I am afraid that opening everything in Cobourg and area will invite people from areas which still have a high level of the virus to come here and bring it to us. We should post signs to the area asking visitors not to come at this time. We would like to have them come later.

Rob
Reply to  PeterRidout
10 June 2020 2:49 pm

Or…people can practice social distancing and appropriate hand washing, cough into their elbow and wear a mask when social distancing isn’t possible while businesses ensure people follow the Provincial and Federal guidelines for reopening…..

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Rob
10 June 2020 3:23 pm

Or…people can practice social distancing and appropriate hand washing, cough into their elbow and wear a mask when social distancing isn’t possible while businesses ensure people follow the Provincial and Federal guidelines for reopening…..

And if they don’t?

Rob
Reply to  Ken Strauss
10 June 2020 3:48 pm

Then perhaps there maybe some small risk of exposure but the Province is opening so get ready and be sure to wear your mask, practice social distancing and wash your hands Ken.
 

Last edited 21 days ago by Rob
JimT
Reply to  Rob
11 June 2020 8:32 am

…and take your vitamin C and D supplements. Your immune system can’t function without them, and you might not be getting enough from diet alone.

Deborah O'Connor
Reply to  Ken Strauss
10 June 2020 10:00 pm

If they don’t comply we can put them in a public stockade and you and your buddies can throw rotten fruit at them. Sounds good, doesn’t it?
 
https://images.app.goo.gl/nNQKqnGgW6KBgMDt5


Sam
Reply to  Ken Strauss
11 June 2020 1:45 pm

That’s why we have the Police or are they just employed now to close down patios on King Street?

Sam
Reply to  PeterRidout
11 June 2020 1:43 pm

Later…. the economy in Cobourg may be dead and there is a likelihood there will be nothing to come too! …Except perhaps the Beach itself.
BTW has anyone noticed that other towns ARE opening their beaches and in fact other beaches outside the main beach are NOT blocked off in Cobourg?
Has nobody got any concerns about the Marina opening or are we looking after the affluent at the expense of others?
Food for thought?

Canuck
Reply to  Sam
11 June 2020 2:16 pm

What other waterfront towns are opening their beaches to non-residents or for that matter residents? Be specific. And I don’t mean provincial parks and beaches.

The Marina should be open to seasonal boaters only. Preferably Cobourg residents and no transient slips. The West beach should also be off limits to non-residents.

Sam I sure hope you and none of your friends ever get COVID. You might regret loosening the restrictions to the point where we let our guard down. To say stay away from the beach or downtown is being simple minded. That is not how to avoid community spread.

beach lover
Reply to  Canuck
11 June 2020 4:26 pm

Wasaga Beach as well as Balm Beach, Bluewater Beach, Cawaja Beach, Concession 13 West Beach, Jackson Park, Lafontaine Beach and Woodland Beach are all opening this weekend with precautions in place.

Canuck Patriot
Reply to  beach lover
11 June 2020 5:10 pm

Open to whom? What restrictions? Are these municipal beaches? Most municipal beaches I am aware of are closed. Stop fighting what can’t be defended. We don’t need tourists coming to our beaches this summer and increasing the risk of community spread.

All residents would like nothing more than to get their lives back to normal. Why are you unable to grasp that these are not normal times? You may not value your life or that of others in Town but the majority I know do care and are neither foolish, selfish or closed minded to the reality and devastation caused by COVID.

CiW
10 June 2020 8:17 am

I think that we have adequate parking off of Covert Street and Albert Street, beside Trinity United and along Division Street. Why not consider making King Street, Division to George/Third, a pedestrian mall for this summer/Fall and allow patios to extend out further?

Jones
Reply to  CiW
10 June 2020 9:11 am

Make king st one way,one lane and large patios
Make third st at marina one way to slow and quieten traffic

ben
Reply to  Jones
10 June 2020 3:36 pm

Why do you want to slow and quieten traffic? Is this request rooted in Cobourg getting back to normal or just another move by “privileged condo owners” wanting a quiet neighbourhood?

Gerald Childs
Reply to  ben
10 June 2020 9:51 pm

I would think the last thing any “privileged condo owners wanting a quieter neighbourhood” would want King St. closed to traffic. Anytime King is shut down to vehicular traffic, where do you think it goes? Usually down Ontario to Albert St., or down Hibernia St.down to Third St and back up to Albert St. for the right-hand turn. Yes, the condo owners love all the overflow. Closing King makes for such a quiet neighbourhood for those pesky privileged few. Sarcasm intended.

Merry Mary
Reply to  ben
12 June 2020 7:40 am

It has nothing to do with “privileged condo tenants, owners, and mortgagees” (like everywhere else) and everything to do with the excessive volume of vehicles, and vehicles with modified exhaust systems, for five months of the year.

Yvonne Michalski
Reply to  CiW
10 June 2020 9:54 am

Good idea! Will bring folk to main drag, good for business that are hurting badly. Patio dining for our short summers sounds like a plan. Will give the restaurants a chance to get back into doing what they do so well. It will encourage a festival atmosphere, so needed right now.

Paul Pagnuelo
Reply to  Yvonne Michalski
10 June 2020 11:48 am

Whatever decision is made about closing King St. to traffic and more patio seating, we need to be mindful that COVID has not gone away and there will be a second wave. Let’s continue to be cautious, not foolish.

JimT
Reply to  CiW
10 June 2020 11:35 am

What if they created huge patios and nobody came?
 
“If people don’t want to come out to the ball park, nobody’s gonna stop ’em.”
— Yogi Berra

Last edited 22 days ago by JimT
Ken
Reply to  JimT
10 June 2020 7:06 pm

Very good Jim, but who said ‘build it and they will come’?

Frenchy
Reply to  Ken
10 June 2020 7:16 pm

Boo Boo

JimT
Reply to  Ken
10 June 2020 8:42 pm

W. P. Kinsella (Field of Dreams).
But what if being seen as part of a crowd at a patio or such becomes unfashionable and subject to censure by friends and neighbours? It’s entirely possible. Worth considering, at least.

Informed
9 June 2020 2:44 pm

I think the Province is making it easier to create and expand patios. It will be snowing here before all the permits will be put through. Lets make it easier this year and get back to normal next year.

Last edited 22 days ago by Informed