Police and CTA Disagree on Beach opening

Last Friday, the Town of Cobourg announced that Parks and Beaches would be opened up for normal activities except for organized sports. Social distancing requirements and limits on groups larger than five would still be required.  It was not a council decision but was authorized by the Mayor.  Since then, we have had one weekend with only a few people on the beach with citizens and (presumably) visitors following the rules.  In fact in a Press Release, Police Chief Paul VandeGraaf thanked citizens for their good behaviour and provided photos as backup (see below).  But many do not agree with the decision and the Cobourg Tax Payers Association (CTA) have started an online petition asking for the beach to be closed for the remainder of 2020.

Cobourg Beach Sat May 23
Cobourg Beach Sat May 23

Police Comments – summary

  • The Cobourg Police Service would like to thank residents for their continued effort in following the new rules and guidelines.
  • “Cobourg residents have been doing their part to fight the spread of COVID-19, and we thank them for that,” says Chief Paul VandeGraaf, Cobourg Police Service. “Unlike other towns and cities this weekend, Cobourg community members continued to follow the new guidelines released by the town on Friday. We would like to thank residents for their continued effort and cooperation. Your actions are making a difference.”
  • Victoria Park and Cobourg Beach saw daytime users in small groups, adhering to rules and health guidelines. The fight against COVID-19 is not over and it is important that we continue to do our part to stop the spread.
  • To date, Cobourg Police has issued four violations under the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act.

Full comments in their Press Release below or here.

Cobourg Beach Sat May 23
Cobourg Beach Sat May 23

At their next Committee of the Whole Meeting on June first, Council is scheduled to decide whether to close the beach with a fence or not.  Part of the “evidence” for this decision will be a report by By-Law officers as to whether there has been any significant violation of the rules in Parks and on the Beach. It looks like Police anecdotal evidence is saying the current approach is working – at least so far.  Other inputs will be direction from the Province.

CTA Statement – Summary

  • In response to justifiable anger by residents, the Cobourg Taxpayers Association (CTA) today launched an online petition demanding that Council hold a recorded vote to permanently fence off and prohibit all access to Victoria Beach for the remainder of 2020.
  • Cobourg residents have endured the sacrifice of two months of quasi-isolation to protect our personal health and safety and that of our community to stop the spread of the virus. “It is a travesty and irresponsible, when many Cobourg residents are of an age that makes them most vulnerable to COVID 19, that the residents are being put at unnecessary risk by having re-opened the beach on May 23rd.
  • The CTA said that Town Council was elected to primarily protect Cobourg’s residents.
  • “Re-opening Cobourg’s Beach to all comers will likely manifest itself in the coming months and responsibility for each and every infection, and each and every death, inflicted upon Cobourg’s residents by this plague will be laid squarely at the feet of those Town leaders,” said Nabieszko.
  • The CTA also encourages residents to take the time to call and email members of Council asking that they put the interests of the community’s health first and foremost. [Contact Information here]

You can sign the petition in the link below – it will be delivered to Town Council on Friday.

Their full comments in their Press Release below or here.

Another concern raised separately by at least one citizen is that although the beach is open, the  public washrooms at the beach are not – this seems to be a disconnect.

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Informed
1 June 2020 7:33 pm

Anyone know if victoria park will remain open and if picnic tables will be out to use?

Rob
Reply to  Informed
2 June 2020 8:42 am

I certainly hope they leave them there….no reason not to.

Frenchy
1 June 2020 7:17 pm

Officially closed, fence up by the weekend.

Frenchy
1 June 2020 9:42 am

Didn’t hear too much of a backlash when we put a fence up around the trailer park.
What’s the big deal?

Wally Keeler
31 May 2020 7:23 pm

Lockdowns have probably killed people, but the recession will kill more https://www.theepochtimes.com/another-doctor-argues-against-lockdown-its-time-we-ended-this-disastrous-policy_3369494.html 
The UK reports about 20,000 excess deaths outside hospital, not associated with COVID-19. Emergency treatment for heart attacks is down 40 percent in England, implying that enormous numbers of people are not being treated. But widespread poverty may prove more important yet.
Suicide, drug use, and violence all increase with unemployment. Heart disease is directly related to poverty. One shudders to think of the developing world, where the U.N. World Food Program estimates that 130 million more people will be pushed to the brink of starvation. That’s 300 times the number of COVID-19 deaths.

Wally Keeler
30 May 2020 10:12 am

I actually dared to ride my trike along the harbourfront and park and noticed that only two people of approx. 50 wore a face mask. I go into Shopper’s Drug Mart and 1 out ten wear a face mask. Their staff don’t even wear facemasks. The Town council should require the police to intervene and issue fines to those not wearing a face mask. Retailers should forbid the entry into their premises unless individuals are wearing a face mask. They should require their staff to wear facemasks. Rack it up as the cost of doing business. Taiwan has proved the effectiveness of widespread facemasks.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Wally Keeler
30 May 2020 10:32 am

Possibly a good idea assuming that masks are readily available. Homemade masks are probably better than nothing but where does one purchase commercial ones?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
30 May 2020 11:30 am

Search on line.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
30 May 2020 12:02 pm

You can get them Walmart, Amazon, Staples, and if you have a bit of patience you can order them from Taiwan, a well-proven reliable source, although the Chinese commies are attempting to sabotage Taiwanese websites. I acquired facemasks at the beginning of March, and another supply of 50 washable facemasks last month. I don’t know why so many many Canadians failed to take responsibility for themselves and acquire them. Laziness and stigma, I suspect. But all those that fail to acquired them should remain under house arrest until they wear them in the public domain.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Wally Keeler
30 May 2020 1:54 pm

People didn’t acquire them because the propaganda (“factual information”) from Dr. Tam said that masks are useless.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
30 May 2020 4:24 pm

I was fully aware that she was a shill for the commies right from the start. She remains a shill for the commies and the WHO also. Taiwan was my source of information, far more direct, transparent and honest. Taiwan produced good results, Canada not so much, largely because we are naïve about the true nature of communism.   The CEO of the Ontario Teacher’s Pension Fund, Ron Mock, said, “China’s a long game from our perspective and while there’s always skirmishes of one kind or another, in the short term, we believe that it’s absolutely necessary to be there,”   Below are a few “skirmishes” that are of little or no concern to Ontario’s teachers: 1.   The invasion, occupation and the continuing cultural genocide of Tibet. 2.   The continuing mass incarceration of Uyghur Muslims and forcing them to eat pork and drink alcohol. 3.   The continuing mass incarceration of Falun Gong members 4.   The industrialized extraction of transplant organs from prisoners 5.   World leader of executions 6.   The kidnapping and imprisonment of multiple Canadians: Huseyin Celil, Sun Qian, Michael Kovrig, Michael Spavor, Sarah McIvor, and many more. 7.   They deliberately infected the world with a deadly virus and withheld medical supplies.   Ontario teachers don’t care… Read more »

Leweez
Reply to  Wally Keeler
30 May 2020 7:19 pm

Wally, quit drinking the bong water!!

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Leweez
31 May 2020 1:02 pm

Leweez, quit spreading lies about me.

Mark
Reply to  Ken Strauss
30 May 2020 4:31 pm

Have you actual ever listen to Dr Tam ,
she has always said all the team decisions are based on the the best scientific evidence they have at that moment in time
she also said everything is constantly changing depending on the evidence, and their recommendations will change depending on the science

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Mark
31 May 2020 1:04 pm

Yes, I have listened to Tam, and it is because I have listened to her and listened to the corrupt WHO and listened to the Communist Party of China, that I have determined that she is a shill.

Andy
29 May 2020 11:16 am

As a concerned citizen, & having read the prior comments, I am expressing my thoughts. I am well aware that most organizations, groups etc. have their own agenda’s & usually are quite firm in regards to that agenda, which often means that often no other considerations are acceptable. I realize that some measures are required but why should those of us who live, & work in Cobourg, pay taxes, support local (& in many cases locally owned) business’ are being denied the opportunity to safely make use of the most enjoyable recreational area in Cobourg. As one who uses the beach a great deal all summer and in fact is one of the main reasons we moved to Cobourg, I don’t feel that we should be penalized because of others. It seems to me that the main concern some local people have is the large groups of people who come to the beach – usually by the busload- every summer. I have not had any concern about that in the past, as there is lots of room on the beach, but for safety’s sake, that situation is perhaps the first to try to deter, possibly by contacting the bus company’s… Read more »

Dubious
Reply to  Andy
29 May 2020 12:39 pm

Some other towns such as Innisfil (https://innisfil.ca/covid19/) have taken steps to prevent outsiders bringing infection to town. Cobourg Council has not approved such. In fact, they have made downtown parking free to encourage visitors.

Mr Jones
Reply to  Dubious
30 May 2020 9:23 am

I like to believe that the Town left the parking free for the residents, cups half full and all that.

Dubious
Reply to  Mr Jones
30 May 2020 10:02 am

So free parking to help residents and then increase taxes on residents to compensate for lost revenue. That seems more like “what the right hand giveth, the left hand taketh away” rather than “cup half full or cup half empty”.

Rob
29 May 2020 9:31 am

Follow the Provincial guidelines and the Federal Governments lead. We are opening the province and moving in the right direction, cautiously. The Town hired additional by-law enforcement for just this reason. Leave the beach open and enforce the by-laws that have been adopted. So tired of the fear mongering as people lose jobs, homes, families, savings, pensions, mental health and lives. Its time to open but in the right way. This virus is here to stay (maybe forever) and a lockdown isn’t an effective long term strategy…

Dubious
Reply to  Rob
29 May 2020 10:50 am

I have great sympathy for those losing their jobs but opening the beach will not help.

Rob
Reply to  Dubious
29 May 2020 11:13 am

It isn’t just about jobs though, Dubious…if it was we could spend our way out of this. Its about a resumption to some degree of normalcy. Its about cautiously opening the Province, developing immunity, protecting those most at risk, while granting those less at risk the opportunity to attempt to rebuild broken lives. Covid-19 isn’t going to disappear because we close beaches, shutter small businesses, line-up at Walmart or keep healthy Canadians locked up.

Dubious
Reply to  Rob
29 May 2020 12:32 pm

Rob, certainly COVID won’t disappear due to closing the beach.Opening the beach won’t make COVID disappear. However, opening the beach may well help to bring it to Cobourg with a vengeance. Should we take the chance for minimal benefit?

Rob
Reply to  Dubious
29 May 2020 2:08 pm

Dubious – yes I do think its worth “the chance” to begin to help a country, a province and our town move forward.  You can not continue to lock-up 100% of the population up to protect 1% when the effects of the lock-up are undeniably catastrophic.  Its time to open the Province, cautiously and in a measured way.  

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Rob
29 May 2020 4:57 pm

There is a vast difference between locking up any of the population and encouraging people from Toronto to visit our beach. Some opening of businesses helps people earn a living. Opening the beach to visitors provides no benefit to Cobourg residents and is almost certain to result in more infections here.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
30 May 2020 10:15 am

Businesses should require their staff to wear facemasks and they should prevent entry into their closed places of people who don’t wear a facemask.

Constance Mealing
Reply to  Wally Keeler
30 May 2020 11:06 pm

Unfortunately not everyone can wear a face mask because of lung conditions. I tried and failed. I do wear gloves and make sure to social distance. Also I only shop every two weeks at one store.

Frenchy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
1 June 2020 9:49 am

Says the guy who wasted N95 masks by wearing them while sporting a heavy beard. Stick a bandana over your face and save the medical grade masks for those who need them. Maybe you didn’t hear that they were in short supply.
 

Last edited 1 month ago by Frenchy
Informed
Reply to  Rob
30 May 2020 1:10 pm

Nobody is locked up. Its a beach. Most people will do just fine without it for awhile

Rob
Reply to  Informed
1 June 2020 8:53 am

The problem is, we can’t define “awhile” nor are we in a position to suggest “most people will do just fine.” The beach is representative of the principal – it is time to open the province, albeit cautiously. The unintended consequences have been signficiant – we’ve killed small and larger business, contributed to massive financial hardship, hurt family structures and increased drug, alcohol, physical abuse and suicide. Yes, we took necessary steps to save some of our most vulnerable but its time to intelligently reopen – this includes beaches, parks, gyms, etc… wear masks, wash hands, socially distance, develop a treatment and vaccine, prepare for the next wave and enforce the by-laws that we have.

Dubious
Reply to  Rob
1 June 2020 9:37 am

You appear to be confusing opening things in order to help people with providing a recreation facility to facilitate the spread of disease to Cobourg. Cobourg has been lucky. It may be reasonable to open things here to help locals. It is absurd to open things here so that Torontonians can bring their infections.

Rob
Reply to  Dubious
1 June 2020 10:19 am

Actually I’m not confused – reopening recreational facilities and allowing for sport is part of helping people. I understand that those individuals and families who aren’t physically active may view it differently however those of us who are it is an important component of our lives. Its important for physical health, mental health and connectivity with others. We will likely see regional reopening strategies and this may ease some concerns.
 

Last edited 1 month ago by Rob
Dubious
Reply to  Rob
1 June 2020 10:42 am

Opening recreational facilities to Cobourg residents and enforcing the appropriate precautions may be OK. Opening recreational facilities and encouraging visitors should not be considered.

Rob
Reply to  Dubious
1 June 2020 11:22 am

I agree – now is not the time to launch a NEW “Visit Northumberland County” campaign ….

Informed
29 May 2020 8:53 am

We are still under a state of emergency. Close the beach for this reason alone. To ensure the safety of the citizens of Cobourg. There should be no need for petitions or Facebook polls.Approach reopening of the beach one month at a time similar to what the Province is doing with commerce and industry.

Matt
29 May 2020 6:08 am

When people who have never made any secret of their strong preference for a Cobourg that is quiet, empty, retired and white start demanding fences be put up in the name of “Safety,” their motives should be strongly questioned, regardless of whether they have a pandemic to use as an excuse.

Mark
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 7:07 am

The only reason I suggest fencing is to limited the number of people on the beach , which is better than locking it completely down

with a limited number of people on the beach with controlled access it will make it easier for the workers control any problems

Matt
Reply to  Mark
29 May 2020 8:06 am

I wasn’t referring specifically to your fencing proposal, but more figuratively towards the demands for a total beach closure.
I can absolutely see the value in limiting capacity and your suggestions seem to be solution-minded.
However, seeing as you mentioned it, the devil’s in the details of those limitations you suggest. Does everyone have to pay for access or are there residency, age and/or day-of-week exemptions? In a thread below, you suggest placing a barrier along the boardwalk–which side? That may seem like a triviality, but it’s a crucial detail, in that one side indicates a clear preference for removing the out-of-town draw whilst making sure morning walks by locals can continue unfettered.

Dubious
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 8:58 am

Matt, you appear to think that “removing the out-of-town draw whilst making sure morning walks by locals can continue unfettered” is bad. Why?

Matt
Reply to  Dubious
29 May 2020 9:07 am

Because it indicates that “Safety” isn’t the only issue at play here. “The beach is terribly unsafe…except for when and how my friends and I want to use it,” isn’t a very convincing argument.

Dubious
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 10:47 am

Your plan to encourage visitors from a covid hotspot is absurd. Zero benefit and increased risk. Why?

Matt
Reply to  Dubious
29 May 2020 11:33 am

Look at the latest statistics of where those hotspots are. The overwhelming majority are in the poorest neighbourhoods in the far northwest part of the city. Those are not the people who are packing up the kids and driving to Cobourg for a day at the beach. Judging by the luxury cars and high-end SUVs in the parking lots on summer weekends, the average beach visitor from out of town is from an economic bracket that has been able to insulate itself pretty effectively from COVID-19. Despite a willful choice to believe otherwise by some, the fact is that summer beach traffic is a significant contributor to the local economy. I don’t believe that should be sacrificed so that a very loud minority can opportunistically create the gated community they’ve always craved through the backdoor.

Dubious
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 12:42 pm

Matt, are you suggesting that we should control beach access based on what type of car the visitor drives?

I’m curious: What local businesses benefit from visitors to the beach.

Matt
Reply to  Dubious
29 May 2020 1:21 pm

A whole lot more than will benefit from shutting them out completely, especially when the rationale behind doing so is questionable at best. You’re making the assumption that everyone who comes into town and visits the beach stays there. Any business not actively capitalizing on it is missing out on an opportunity.

And read the post again…you know full well that’s not what I’m suggesting.

Dubious
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 1:36 pm

How many is “a whole lot more“? The vast majority of businesses are not capitalizing on beach visitors. Please explain how the average Cobourg resident benefits from beach visitors.

Matt
Reply to  Dubious
29 May 2020 1:50 pm

How do you know what the “vast majority of businesses,” are and aren’t capitalizing on?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Dubious
30 May 2020 10:18 am

The locals don’t wear facemasks along the waterfront walk.

Informed
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 1:34 pm

Matt. I think people are growing tired of the racist card you allude to. Our PM and John Tory played the same tune and delayed closing international flights and the border in fear of offending travelers from other countries.White people from Toronto use our beach as well and I dont think the virus picks and chooses according to race.

Matt
Reply to  Informed
29 May 2020 2:43 pm

In my experience, the term “the race card” is used almost exclusively by people who are either being asked to look at things a little closer than they’d care to or being called on something they know is indefensible.
No, the virus doesn’t pick and choose according to race. People do…and if you haven’t heard the undercurrents of that in the annual, “crowded, loud beach,” complaints, you haven’t been listening.
Those same undercurrents are at play in the heavy-handed, no-compromise beach closure demands.
And correct me if I’m wrong, but has it not been fairly firmly established that the earliest documented cases in Canada could be traced back to Canadians returning from wintering in Arizona and New Mexico?

Informed
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 3:09 pm

Matt. I look at Toronto that accounts for 75% of Covid cases in the province and know that our beaches are full of GTA people that want to escape the city. Now more than ever.
I dont care if they are white,black or pink. I dont paint everyone with the same brush as you appear to and insinuate peoples concerns are more than just concerns for the well being of eveyone living here.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Matt
29 May 2020 4:14 pm

Matt, please enlighten me. What aspect of “crowded, loud beach” relates to race? However your comments regarding which areas of Toronto are most infected might be interpreted as race related.

Mr Jones
28 May 2020 9:50 pm

If you must close the beach, close it to everyone, for two reasons:

1) How does a resident prove they have not left the safety of the town boundaries (and how do we set the boundaries) in the last 9 weeks so they haven’t brought the virus back to Cobourg.

2) We may be seen as targeting minorities/racist if the town decides to only let the chosen ones have access.

Further, are all the CTA members and petition signers able to prove that they have not left town? I am sure Port Hope, Peterborough, Grafton etc. dont want any cross contamination either.

Dubious
Reply to  Mr Jones
28 May 2020 10:26 pm

Read it.

The petition requests that the beach be *C*L*O*S*E*D*.

No exceptions.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Dubious
29 May 2020 10:02 pm

And note that they want it C*L*O*S*E*D in December because of the hordes that come down from the GTA

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
1 June 2020 4:07 pm

If there isnt hordes of people in December than it wont matter if its closed will it?

Rational
28 May 2020 7:54 pm

http://todaysnorthumberland.ca/2020/05/28/victoria-beach-is-crisis-in-the-making-if-it-remains-open-lawyer-tells-council/

The above link is from Today’s Northumberland’s online paper today. It includes a letter from a lawyer to Mayor Henderson with legal concerns if Town Leadership decide to leave the Beach open.

Section 224 a) of the Ontario Role of Council guidelines (hopefully I have this right) states that the first guideline of council is “to represent the public and consider the well-being and interest of the municipality”.

In my view the decision to close the Beach should be easy to make with closure the ultimate outcome. Given the comments provided on this topic, and that approximately 1,400 residents have signed a petition to close the Beach (~ 35% of those who voted in the last election), if the Mayor and Leadership vote to leave the Beach open, then a review of their leadership needs to be undertaken now and not wait until the next election in 2022.

Frenchy
Reply to  Rational
28 May 2020 10:27 pm

It’s a done deal.

What Councillor has the cojones to not go long with this?

Last edited 1 month ago by Frenchy
perplexed
28 May 2020 11:39 am

Just on the News the Virus droplets travels much farther than 6 ft in Humid conditions

and wind direction & speed No Kidding ! There goes the trailer life and close quarter Marina

May be the people on the beach should have a reusable visible Tag or Ribbon or wristband like you get at the hospital issued by the town indicating they are provable Residents / tax payers of the area anyone else should be checked before entering These could be printed up in a matter of hours or day show your ID at the gate entrance town hall thats closed get a tag

Hey May be the Town Hall and all offices will re open if the Mayor thinks its safe enough out there

Get back to work

Deborah O'Connor
Reply to  perplexed
30 May 2020 10:11 pm

“Show me your papers” says the officious cop to every hapless and confused visitor who just wants some summer fun at our glorious beach here in the “Feel Good” town.

Frenchy
Reply to  Deborah O'Connor
30 May 2020 10:22 pm

And we want to keep it our “Feel Good” town, not the Covid 19 town. They can come back to “feel good” when this whole thing has blown over.
 

Last edited 1 month ago by Frenchy
Sharon Keogh & David Acomba
28 May 2020 9:35 am

Not surprising that there were not a lot of people at Cobourg Beach last weekend. As in the past, the numbers will zoom up quickly, especially when the lake is warm enough to wade or swim in. In past years, there have always been humungous crowds. Crazy to think of opening the beach!

Camper1
28 May 2020 8:25 am

It is my understanding that the trailer park will also open. Seasonal are scheduled to move it this weekend. Not confirmed. It will be interesting to know the plans for transient campers.

Gerald Childs
Reply to  Camper1
28 May 2020 10:25 am

The Town web page says they will notify people when the Reservation link goes live. “Please note that the online reservation request form will GO LIVE again when the temporary hold is removed.”

https://www.cobourg.ca/en/town-hall/Victoria-Park-Campground.aspx?_mid_=105725#

Anthony
Reply to  Gerald Childs
28 May 2020 12:57 pm

Ford is expected to open camp ground in Ontario to transients very soon. The question is what is the towns plan to open once they have the green light. It is very close quarters in the camp ground and the front camp sites are very close to the walkway. It is used by campers from all of Canada.

Rob
Reply to  Anthony
29 May 2020 10:38 am

Perhaps the Town will limit the number of campers allowed in the park i.e. cut the occupancy by 50% – not unlike what the Province will likely do with restaurants. Also, by-law enforcement can ensure campers and boardwalk walkers remain 6 feet (or more) apart and groups stay under 5 people in camp sites and on the beach.

Mark
27 May 2020 7:22 pm

We are back to fencing off the beach and regulating the numbers on the beach

charging admission to pay for the fencing And the people to keep count

people pay to use the ccc , so this should be no different

by September take the fencing Down

Merry Mary
Reply to  Mark
28 May 2020 7:57 am

Fencing? Perhaps fencing off the high density GTA, the region that is holding back the rest of the Province, could be considered.

Mark
Reply to  Merry Mary
28 May 2020 2:49 pm

The town can only control thing within their Borders

they cannot builded a fence around the GTA

place a fence on the edge of the boardwalk with controlled access points

dont ask for the impossible, make possible suggestions

Frenchy
Reply to  Mark
28 May 2020 3:32 pm

I took it as a bit of a “tongue in cheek” comment Mark. I really don’t think Merry Mary was actually proposing that Cobourg (or anyone) should/could fence in the GTA.😉

Mark
Reply to  Frenchy
28 May 2020 7:31 pm

I realize that, but give at least a sensible answer if you don’t like the statement

I really don’t care one way or the other since I don’t use the beach

I was just provide a reasonable solution to what some people consider to be a problem without cost the town anymore money

Merry Mary
Reply to  Mark
28 May 2020 7:29 pm

Where was it written that the Town of Cobourg should build a fence around the GTA? How is it possible for our Town to fence- east of Green Street to west of Ontario Street- the extent of the two popular beaches?

Informed
27 May 2020 6:13 pm

With all the gyms closed…when is that adult fitness park opening at the beach? Lol

Matt
27 May 2020 5:49 pm

Do you know what else people from the GTA come out this way to do? Play golf.
I’d be very curious to know the total number of rounds played by members of the CTA since courses opened last week and where they were played.
People responsibly maintaining social distance while enjoying a beach? Far too risky! The deaths will be on Council’s hands! You cleaning your ball in the same washer as everyone who teed off before you? A-okay, right?

Informed
Reply to  Matt
27 May 2020 6:07 pm

You cant get 1000 people on the course at the same time!

Matt
Reply to  Informed
27 May 2020 7:05 pm

No, but about 300 can play through it on a busy day…all of them touching the same flag pins, ball washers, carts, etc. There’s a greater risk of transmission in that setting than on the beach.

Rational
Reply to  Matt
27 May 2020 7:19 pm

Matt you need to look at Covid 19 golf rules. There are no ball washers, pins and holes are raised so polls are not pulled or touched, single use on carts with carts cleaned after every use, etc. Plus much more. These guidelines are posted.

Last edited 1 month ago by Rational
Matt
Reply to  Rational
27 May 2020 7:45 pm

Didn’t know that about the pins. Good idea. (Can almost guarantee you that the quality of the cart sterilization varies from course to course and cleaner to cleaner, but anyways…)
It sounds to me like reasoned people can come up with solutions to make otherwise unsafe situations, safe enough that people can enjoy them responsibly, rather than shutting them down outright.
Why doesn’t that apply to the beach?

Gerinator
Reply to  Matt
28 May 2020 10:10 am

Three words Matt – Trinity Bellwoods Park (TBP). There is a sense of entitlement and lack of caring-for-others that exists; further the enforcement of the rules can be confrontational = what happened at TBP – ie nothing happened. Why? Because the 100 or so police in attendance feared/were concerned that the ‘partee’ was to populated, in swing and the prospect of an immediate, and illegal, backlash by the participants. Safe solutions, as you envision it, requires cooperation and compromise on the part of all participants. I say take the enforcement, confrontational aspects out of the equation and put up a fence for the time that is needed to get ahead of this thing and get back to a modicum of normalcy.

Informed
Reply to  Rational
27 May 2020 7:48 pm

I’ve looked all over for a ball washer and have found none.

Gerinator
Reply to  Informed
28 May 2020 10:13 am

Quite right Informed. Add to that list: Benches, score cards, pencils (on 1 and 10 tees) and no hunting for ball hawking.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Matt
28 May 2020 3:55 pm

If it is about touching this or that, then it behooves golfers to bring along their hand sanitizer.

Rob
Reply to  Wally Keeler
29 May 2020 10:40 am

could easier add hand sanitizer at each tee box…..

Eastender
27 May 2020 5:39 pm

Checkpoints? Checking ID’s? Closing amenities to non-residents?

….paranoia strikes deep…….

Informed
27 May 2020 5:07 pm

Do the benefits of opening the beach outweigh the risks? Thats the only question that needs to be asked. Im still trying to think of any benefits.

Linda
27 May 2020 3:36 pm

This is basically what the CTA is saying.

FB_IMG_1590608039085.jpg
Frenchy
Reply to  Linda
27 May 2020 4:49 pm

Except our beach isn’t going to look like that (empty) in a couple of weeks. Look at last weeks pics of Trinity-Bellwoods Park in Toronto to get an idea of what our beach will look like.

Informed
Reply to  Linda
27 May 2020 5:05 pm

They can go to Walmart in Toronto

Rob
27 May 2020 2:19 pm

I hope I hear MCGA and others strongly articulate concerns regarding the more than 5200 Canadians who will commit suicide in 2020. Data suggests that suicide rates will increase by 30% as a result of the Covid pandemic – uncertain futures, job loss, bankruptcy, loss of social structure from being in isolation all directly contributing. This group, who very soon, will no longer be with us are also part of the greater good you so emphatically are trying to protect. Mental health is an important part of the pandemic story. There is more to the argument than what is being expressed in this thread – it isn’t black and white – but perhaps you aren’t worried about that because it isn’t contagious.

Last edited 1 month ago by Rob
MCGA
Reply to  Rob
27 May 2020 6:19 pm

This pandemic event is the greatest tragedy of my lifetime, and I served in Vietnam and had friends and coworkers die when the World Trade Towers fell. No one is going to come out of this untouched, or worse, unscarred. I am a numbers guy who grew up in a medical family and then was surrounded by medical people in my immediate family. I see the economic crush. My training says there will be more. I know the history of the 1918 event; having immersed myself in it when I saw this wave building in late February. My sole intent was to protect my family and friends and community from the kind of devastation that occurred between 1918 and 1920. I know not everyone will remain well. I know not everyone will survive. But if we employ the old Boy Scout motto, “Be Prepared,” more will then won’t. And I will gladly take the heat for anything else.

Bill Thompson
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 7:17 pm

Welcome home brother ! 👍

Matt
Reply to  Rob
28 May 2020 6:53 am

There’s your answer, Rob. They’ll pay a bit of lip service to it and then, in the next breath, tell you why it doesn’t matter.
And then give themselves a great big pat on the back for good measure.

Rational
27 May 2020 12:49 pm

This is extracted today from CBC News-

“Toronto and its surrounding regions account for a disproportionately high number of Ontario’s new cases of COVID-19, [>75%] according to a CBC News analysis of provincial data on novel coronavirus infections”.  

In my view this adds strongly to closing the Cobourg Beach for 2020 and/or until this situation is under control as the beach is a draw of the GTA.

CobourgPerson
27 May 2020 12:26 pm

Is it possible to ban some members from this blog? (or encourage them to seek help) I really enjoy reading the posts and the debates that follow and without a daily local paper this blog is quite informative. However some member’s inane posts that flood every article are just too much to handle.

Old Sailor
27 May 2020 11:19 am

I find it odd that our Town and County leaders have figured out ways to “mitigate risks” to the Town and County that might be caused by local taxpayers – like making it almost impossible to take anything to the waste recycling centres unless you plan to make a day of it in a line up. Not sure how one would get within 2 metres of anyone else at a waste recycling centre. And look at all of the local indoor and outdoor events we Cobourg residents usually attend that have been cancelled this summer to protect us from spreading the virus. But, if you are from away, there are no rules. Come on down to our free beach and enjoy yourself. I don’t get it. When the beach is packed one or two bylaw officers won’t be able to control social distancing. Perhaps closing the beach this summer will give the Town time to figure out how to charge beach goers a fee who do not have photo ID with a K9A address. $10 a head seems fair to me. Why not recover the beach operating costs?

Frenchy
27 May 2020 9:49 am
comment image

Last edited 1 month ago by Frenchy
MCGA
Reply to  Frenchy
27 May 2020 10:00 am

Absolutely. This is all about minimizing the pain to come. Ontario has now extended the Emergency Order. Clearly the Provincial Health people are not happy with the progress and the shortfall in testing. And over 1,100 residents agree to take the beach closing step. How many on your anti-closing petition Wally?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Frenchy
27 May 2020 10:12 am

Accurate portrayal of reality?

Frenchy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 10:26 am

It is a cartoon.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Frenchy
27 May 2020 12:06 pm

Of course it is, but one that MCGAGA takes seriously. LOL

Gerinator
Reply to  Frenchy
28 May 2020 10:27 am

Yes it is. Funny how cartoons visually bring home the point! I really don’t get why people are so dismissive of the medical and scientific community. The data (historical and forward-looking analysis) suggest that we will be up ‘Schitt’s Creek’ and we are desperately looking for ways to get ourselves out of there. Denial and/or imposing fantastical solutions is not going to work. Common sense it, even if it is distasteful and lengthy.

Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 9:16 am

The H1N1 “Spanish flu” outbreak of 1918–1919 was the most devastating pandemic on record, killing between 50 million and 100 million people. Should the next influenza pandemic prove equally virulent, there could be more than 300 million deaths globally. The conventional view is that little could have been done to prevent the H1N1 virus from spreading or to treat those infected; however, there is evidence to the contrary. Records from an “open-air” hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, suggest that some patients and staff were spared the worst of the outbreak. A combination of fresh air, sunlight, scrupulous standards of hygiene, and reusable face masks appears to have substantially reduced deaths among some patients and infections among medical staff.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4504358/

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 10:23 am

Wally, your article is interesting but appears to lack any mention of COVID19. What is its relevance to the current situation? Did I miss something?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
27 May 2020 12:08 pm

You certainly did. MCGAGA brought up the 1918 epidemic to make an analogous point. Copy and paste any portion of the comment above and google it for the expanded article.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 10:27 am

Again, what they did establish was reducing the volume of that virus in the air, by not confining patients to small quarters (like porta pottys) where the virus would concentrate, improved outcomes. They have no evidence that sunlight killed it. In the same way, over 100 years later, they have no vaccine for that virus. Simply, these are two different viruses. Not every virus spreads the same way, lives as long outside the body, attacks the same organ systems, creates the same immunity storm, produces the same antibodies, kills the same age group, and the list goes on. Over 1,100 Cobourg residents get this.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 12:12 pm

https://www.newsweek.com/sunlight-kills-coronavirus-scientist-1500012

William Bryan, science and technology advisor to the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) secretary, said in a press briefing that sunlight has a significant impact on the pathogen.

“Our most striking observation to date is the powerful effect that solar light appears to have on killing the virus, both surfaces and in the air,” he said. “We’ve seen a similar effect with both temperature and humidity as well, where increasing the temperature and humidity or both is generally less favorable to the virus.”

Over 1100 Cobourg residents are ignorant of the facts that you deny.

Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 8:53 am

Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology Directorate report. “Sunlight destroys the virus quickly,” the report states. The half-life of the virus was 2 minutes with full solar intensity, or similar to New York City or the District of Columbia during a clear day on summer solstice. “Sunlight reduced infectious virus to undetectable levels after just 3 minutes of exposure to the solar equivalent of midday sun on a sunny day in the middle latitudes of the U.S.,” researchers wrote.

We all know that there is a lack of sunlight on the beach. Hence the bloated paranoia of the CTA.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 10:15 am

This demonstrates the importance of reading. What that report dealt with is survival of the virus on hard surfaces, particularly stainless steel and plastic. Not air borne droplets distributed via coughing, sneezing, talking etc. And it qualified it conclusion in several ways but most importantly:

  • Infectious dose is unknown (how much makes a person sick)
  • Virus shedding is unknown (how much a sick person puts into the environment)

So an hour of sunlight may, and they state may, protect on a hard surface like your beach chair arm, not so sure about: towels, blankets, umbrella material or even your banana hammock.

There is no evidence that UV, in sunlight doses, kills the virus.

Linda
27 May 2020 2:03 am

A small faction of the population has decided that we should all stay indoors for the remainder of the year. As a mature adult I have felt until now that I am a responsible person and able to make informed decisions. I know to stay away from the beach when it is busy, I know how to social distance and keep myself and others safe. Assuming people from out of town are coming only for the beach is extremely small minded. Some come for our restaurants, some for our unique stores and many for other outdoor areas. Perhaps we should set up checkpoints at all roads into town since I can’t be trusted to use the beach when I see fit, nor walk through the farmers market. Town officials, staff and the community as a whole have done a great job which is why are numbers are low. Shame on you for not supporting and praising your community. This is fear mongering and that is unacceptable.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Linda
27 May 2020 4:36 am

Good comment Linda. The CTA wants the beach closed until Dec31. Why? It is ludicrous overreach reflecting irrational fears. In all my life in Cobourg, I never saw a crowd of people on the beach in October, let alone November or December. What justification is there to close the beach for those three months? None whatsoever.

Infectious disease specialist Dr. Isaac Bogoch agrees. “A lot of the data that’s emerged show the greatest risk of getting this infection is in indoor environments where people are close together,” he said.

Informed
Reply to  Linda
27 May 2020 11:33 am

What about all the people that think the virus is a hoax. You know…the ones that dont move over on a sidewalk or in a grocery store.You are right….many will stop in other places while here …not just the beach. COVID cases in Toronto amount to 75% of the provinces total. Where do you think most people on the beach in the summer travel from?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Informed
27 May 2020 12:16 pm

and what percentage of that high 75% consists of long term care facilities of people that do not travel anywhere let alone to the Cobourg beach.

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 1:26 pm

Maybe the staff does😯

GailR
Reply to  Linda
27 May 2020 3:35 pm

If only everyone were like you, Linda. Unfortunately they are not, so we have to plan to allow for that. On the first really hot day if our beach were open we would likely have a situation like the one in Trinity Bellwoods Park in Toronto last Saturday. And the Premier is now urging everyone who was there to get tested for COVID.

Frenchy
Reply to  GailR
27 May 2020 4:55 pm

You’re right GailR and Linda, but unfortunately we have to have bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator and make rules for such. And, we don’t need to import them from the GTA, they are among us. You’ve all met and seen them crowding in grocery store isles, on the sidewalk and in your neighbourhood.

Frenchy
Reply to  Frenchy
27 May 2020 7:38 pm

isles? oops… meant aisles.

Harlot's Ghost
26 May 2020 8:49 pm

Just adding another voice into the debate…..Nobel Laureate, Dr, Michael Levitt of Stanford University accurately modeled the impact on China after the outbreak. He suggests that western and European shut-downs have caused more fatalities than they prevented.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8351649/Lockdown-waste-time-kill-saved-claims-Nobel-laureate.html

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Harlot's Ghost
26 May 2020 10:30 pm

Michael Levitt, a Stanford University professor who correctly predicted the initial scale of the pandemic, suggested the decision to keep people indoors was motivated by ‘panic’ rather than the best science.”

This applies to the CTA and its fear-mongering petition. The CTA did not apply best science — it applied no science at all. Why close the beach until Dec 31, rather than October 31? There must have been a scientific reason for their decision but the CTA provided no viable science other than panicking themselves and going all stupid by laying possible deaths at the feet of the Town leaders. The CTA provided the Town with no means of measuring their effectiveness — they have no metrics. And with that they want to curtail the freedom of everyone else.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 7:44 am

So Wally you want the beach to be closed until October 31? BTW, a simple metric might be Ontario reporting no new infections for 14 to 21 days for all areas within 100 km of Cobourg. Not likely anyone beyond that would drive to the Town beach on a weekend.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 8:26 am

The CTA is being called out for their ludicrous overreach and stupidity. How many crowds have you ever seen on the beach on October? Or November let alone December? Utterly stupid and without any scientific basis whatsoever.

Frenchy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 8:19 am

OK, so change the wording a little bit. Instead of December 31st, how about something like “to be reviewd and reconsidered at the first council meeting of every month based on staff reports and provincial and medical recommendations”.

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Frenchy
27 May 2020 8:31 am

The CTA wants the baby sitting in dirty water for the next 7 months. Review the issue monthly, no problem, but when the CTA goes full blown paranoia, laying all deaths and infections at the feet of Town leaders, there is a total lack of reason, let alone rationale.

Frenchy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 8:43 am

Agree. So let’s hammer out some wording that will work for all and get the job done. Put partisan crap aside.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Frenchy
27 May 2020 9:06 am

There are over 1200 Cobourg residents who want the beach closed until December 31. There are over 1200 Cobourg residents who believe that every infection and death should be laid at the feet of Cobourg Town Council and upper staff.

I expect the Town Council will strenuously reject the disgusting ransom that is implicit in laying the deaths at their feet. I expect the Town Council will have enough common sense to reject the beach ban for October, November and December without there being some compelling evidence, which the CTA has failed to provide.

Anne
26 May 2020 8:06 pm

We live in a democracy and our elected officials, town staff and police services have been doing an excellent job of keeping us informed and safe. I don’t appreciate groups like the CTA trying to derail the democratic process and question the integrity of town council. Our town will make the appropriate decisions at the appropriate times concerning access to the beach area. Worst case scenario the beach might have be closed to other than Cobourg residents..but I trust elected government to make that call.

Kyle
26 May 2020 6:18 pm

the Chief sticking his nose publicly into the issue is totally inappropriate. Now, if the beach does become an issue this summer let him resign.

Are_n
26 May 2020 6:10 pm
Wally Keeler
Reply to  Are_n
26 May 2020 10:35 pm

However they haven’t gone to the ludicrous extent to closing it until Dec 31. (as if crowds will be flocking to beaches in November. So much for CTA science.)

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 11:46 am

Did you want to use it this December?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Informed
27 May 2020 12:19 pm

Of course I want to use it in December to serve a purpose of mine.

Frenchy
Reply to  Are_n
27 May 2020 8:01 am

Innisfil has also figured this part out too. Maybe one or two of our Councillors should take the 2 hour drive up to find out how to do it.

https://www.simcoe.com/news-story/9992341-parking-just-got-more-expensive-at-innisfil-beach-park/

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Frenchy
27 May 2020 8:33 am

Perhaps the CTA should take the 2hour drive to find out how Innisfil will handle the crowd in October, November and December. DUH!

Bill Thompson
26 May 2020 1:06 pm

What hours and how many Bylaw and police are monitoring the beach areas ?

Is it only on weekends or daily?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Bill Thompson
26 May 2020 4:04 pm

Given the profound paranoia of the CTA and ilk, it should be under surveillance 24/7, with exorbitant fines and perhaps a bit of imprisonment. Keep people inside their high rise apartments where they are more apt to be infected than the great outdoors. Studies suggest activities held outdoors as temperatures warm pose lower COVID risk than those done in confined indoor spaces,” tweeted Scott Gottlieb, the former Food and Drug Administration commissioner.

Dubious
Reply to  Wally Keeler
26 May 2020 4:26 pm

Keep people inside their high rise apartments where they are more apt to be infected than the great outdoors.

Cobourg has few high rise apartments so that is not a significant issue.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Dubious
26 May 2020 4:55 pm

It is a significant issue when the GTA leave their high rises and come to visit. And that is what this issue is about, closing off the beach from outsiders. Duh Doobie!

Mark
26 May 2020 1:03 pm

Maybe do what they do in New Jersey, charge a day rate to use the beach from May 24 until Mid summer

you give a discount to the locals

https://njmonthly.com/articles/jersey-shore/ultimate-jersey-shore-beach-guide/

Frenchy
Reply to  Mark
26 May 2020 1:36 pm

I like it. If they can figure out how to control access in New Jersey, I’m sure we can figure it out here. We might be able to cover the costs of maintenance, lifeguards, patrolling, etc. Give the canteen back to Yorkie for a flat rate or allow some independent weenie cart owners in.

Mark
Reply to  Frenchy
26 May 2020 5:25 pm

They could set up fencing like they do at waterfront festival

trailer park fee could increased to included passes for the beach

Cobourg taxpayer
26 May 2020 12:31 pm

In my opinion the beach at Victoria Park should closed due to no washrooms, no garbage collection, no lifeguards. Social distancing, frequent hand washing and the wearing of masks as recommended by the provincial government will not occur which will become very important as the beach gets more crowded once it is summer. For the greater good ( as in not giving the coronavirus any means to spread) people need to stay home.

PDR
26 May 2020 12:24 pm

The CTA attempt to lay guilt on the Town Council by saying any deaths would be on their hands is absolutely disgusting! The infected hoards are not going to descend on Cobourg. Follow health professional guidelines. Open the beach AND the washrooms. Have by-law officers monitor & enforce stringent social distancing and only fence later if changing conditions make it necessary.

Frenchy
Reply to  PDR
26 May 2020 12:41 pm

I don’t totally disagree with you PDR, but an argument on the other side might be to compare fencing later (if conditions change) to closing the barn door after the horse got out. And… what might those “changing conditions” be, several recorded infections?

Last edited 1 month ago by Frenchy
Silverhairedsenior
Reply to  PDR
26 May 2020 6:12 pm

How can you open the washrooms when they would need to be sterilized after each use.

perplexed
26 May 2020 12:06 pm

I guess that we have a lot of Medical experts out there of all facets of health

so Just may be we should leave it up to the Regional Health Dept to make decisions

I am also very surprised that there is no NO mandatory testing of our food handlers

whether it be in the grocery stores Restaurants and take outs .

even the person that may not handle the food but say handles the packaging

can spread the virus ??

brenda219
26 May 2020 11:53 am

I saw the CTA petition and shuddered. People need access to green spaces, SAFELY. Clear signs, patrols, education and fines yes. I’d like to see opinions/guidance from Behavioural Psychologists for the ‘How to’, especially planning outings. We have the Medical expert guidance on viral transmission and safe activity… if everyone follows that, are we not in danger from fear vs. knowledge driving us?

Informed
Reply to  brenda219
26 May 2020 4:57 pm

The beach isnt a need. Its a want for some. Not every Town has a beach on Lake Ontario. Thats why they come to ours. 65% of Covid casss are the in GTA. Wonder how may GTA residents use our beach? Answer…LOTS!

Emma
26 May 2020 10:58 am

If they close the Victoria Park beach will officers be patrolling the west beach and boardwalk? Or the beach by the Marina boat compound? These places attract people as well.

perplexed
26 May 2020 10:27 am

There has been No swarming to Cobourg yet and I believe its partially due to the good senses of our Town Mayors and Vacation communities to the north , which our Mayor should look into

but never Listens — Last night the Agenda covered this very issue for an hour . No exceptions

STAY HOME Stay away NOT IN OUR BACK YARD really applies this time —- Yes they are monitoring licence plates and where the cars came from by the dealer plaques on the back bumpers in the Store parking lots ,and fines issued . Trailer parks are not open

and seasonal residents are strongly discouraged Even Deer Hurst is still closed until July

to any seasonal time share & condo owners are not allowed on the resort property

I would really like to see the Mayor patrolling and controlling the beach on the weekends on this down time

Malcom H Thomas
26 May 2020 10:05 am

Lets not be so quick to take away privileges that have yet to be abused.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Malcom H Thomas
26 May 2020 11:58 am

I think you meant to say, “Let’s not be so quick to take away rights that have yet to be abused.” Once you lose your rights it is almost impossible to get them back. Income tax, we were told in 1917, was a necessary evil until we get over World War I. Income tax is still with us today — now that is a virus still raging.

Jayne Finn
26 May 2020 9:08 am

Shall we install a Check Point Charlie to check all documents of people desiring passage? I live a couple of blocks from the beach and walk there daily. There has been no influx on the two beautiful weekends we have had with mostly family groups enjoying their time in the sun. Family groups with as much to loose if the virus strikes as any local and no reason to want to endanger themselves or anyone else. From a distance I couldn’t really tell whether they were local or not. Is the CTA the same group that complains every year that the swarms who come to the beach never spend a cent on town but now worry they will go shopping?
Let’s let our new bylaw officers do their job and warn or fine people if they contravene social distancing.

Matt
26 May 2020 7:56 am

So when the dust settles on this, and the people who have lost their jobs or seen businesses they’ve put years into building destroyed, all through absolutely no fault of their own, and all in the interest of safety-at-all-costs, can we be confident the CTA and it’s members will be first in line to open their wallets to fund programs to aid those who have lost their livelihoods during this mess?

I think we all know the answer to that.

They’ll go back to whining over every last nickel in taxes they have to pay and the economic victims of this will go back to being “loafers and layabouts who I shouldn’t have to support with my tax dollars when they just couldn’t be bothered to work as hard as me.”

And let me guess, the CTA’s closure demands include a clause that will allow for Monday to Friday morning beach walks. (Minimum age and duration of Cobourg residency restrictions will, of course, apply).

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Matt
26 May 2020 8:06 am

“…the CTA’s closure demands include a clause that will allow for Monday to Friday morning beach walks. (Minimum age and duration of Cobourg residency restrictions will, of course, apply).”

Perhaps you should read the petition at https://cobourgtaxpayers.ca/petition-to-keep-the-beach-closed/ before making comments.

Matt
Reply to  Ken Strauss
26 May 2020 8:33 am

Remove the references, “this plague,” and this pretty much echoes the sentiment that I hear from a small but very loud minority of Cobourgians at the beginning of every summer. I’d argue that the CTA and It’s members are using COVID-19 to further an agenda they already had, and I find that contemptible.

MCGA
Reply to  Matt
26 May 2020 9:02 am

Matt, this extraordinary event has nothing to do with past of outsider vs. insider, or anyone else’s tax agenda, business agenda, political agenda…it is just plain public health in the face of a novel virus that we all have zero immunity to and no protective vaccine for. Please reference the attached at your leisure:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/lifestyle/smart-living/are-beaches-and-pools-safe-how-to-swim-during-the-pandemic/ar-BB14wtrx?ocid=msedgdhp

Matt
Reply to  MCGA
26 May 2020 10:10 am

I agree that this is an extraordinary event. People’s reaction to it has been about what you’d expect.

On a side note, click-bait MSN articles make for lousy pieces of documentary evidence. A big part of the problem in all of this is too many people getting their information from their social media feed rather than reputable sources.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Matt
26 May 2020 12:12 pm

We have zero immunity and no protective vaccine.

Those are the reasons that MCGA claims the beach should be closed. There is no such thing as zero immunity. Humanity has never achieved that goal. There is no vaccine available and it may well take years for one to be developed, and distributed. In that case, the petite tyrants of beach closure will insist that the beach be closed indefinitely for years if need be, just to satisfy some paranoid’s disregard for the rights of healthy individuals who go to work each day yet are forbidden to enjoy a beach. Utterly stupid, selfish and tyrannical.

MCGA
Reply to  Matt
26 May 2020 4:31 pm

Matt, if you read the article the source was Global News Toronto. Not a social media feed at all. And the quotes from from leading experts not Russia Today as the Wally like to employ.

Matt
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 4:53 am

I read the article. It is a piece of click-bait fluff, from the “You Won’t Believe…” school of journalism, originally published on the Global News website…and judging by the link you provided, it got to you via an MSN feed.
If that is your primary source for information, then you are getting a steady diet of articles that their algorithm has deemed most likely to prompt you to click on them. Every time you click on one, MSN gets paid. If your comment history on here is any indicator, “terribly, terribly frightened of COVID-19,” is most likely a prominent tag on your account. In this day and age, it’s important for everyone to periodically reflect on whether that tail hasn’t begun to wag us a bit.

MCGA
Reply to  Matt
27 May 2020 7:22 am

It was not the article itself but the observations contained from the two PhDs (U fo T and Rutgers) that highlighted the risk of exposure at the beach. Particularly if wind could extend the projection of the virus beyond the 6 ft safety range.

As an aside typically scan or digest seven papers from four countries; three weekly magazines from two countries along with various research papers or texts I receive from friends and family in different fields, include medicine and health. My wife, who was a Public Health Nurse in the GTA during the 2003 SARS event and my son, a Navy Doctor, along with some of their professional associates, are pretty good feeds of evidence based information. So, not click bait based.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 8:38 am

Why don’t you ask your extraordinary family if they believe the beach should be closed during the months of October, November and December when there are NO CROWDS.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 9:46 am

I think they are extraordinary too, Wally. My wife, who saw coworkers die from SARS and knows others who, 17 years later, are still suffering from its lung damage, would say keep the beach closed until the infection rate in Ontario drops to zero for an extended period of time or a effective vaccine is produced and deployed to cover at least 82% of the population. My son would likely agree but only require 70% for herd immunity and then pose the constitutional and legal question on beach closing to his wife, a corporate lawyer. We can’t all be mediocre Wally.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 10:03 am

Just you are mediocre and I can see it in your witless use of language. I come from a ner do well family, my father nothing more than a cobbler who committed suicide when I was 14, you know, because he has a son like me. Just wanted to give you some ammo to denigrate me, as you have already done in spades, telling lies about me, eg. asserting that I get my info from the National Inquirer. At least my family taught me to not lie.

Merry Mary
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 12:52 pm

Yet, there has to be a connection in that the surname “Keeler” is synonymous with the early settlers of Colborne with its notable leaders and the village’s initial prosperity.

Matt
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 9:05 am

Then you should know what PhD’s using words like, “could,” “might,” and “theoretically,” says about the science in an article, that “leading expert,” in this context, means either a) “on the list of people who made themselves available to us,” (if the writer actually did interview them), or b) “came up in the results of my search for quotes that agreed with my premise,” and finally, that the Lifestyle page is just about the last place you should be looking for science-based reporting.

MCGA
Reply to  Matt
27 May 2020 9:10 am

One of many places provided you qualify the guidance given and the expert speaking. You can also bounce it off the WHO, CDC, JAMA, Lancet, NEJM and a host of other professional periodicals. You look broadly and then qualify.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2020 10:08 am

So MCGA please tell me what evidence you have to prove your assertion that I get my info from the National Inquirer. Here’s a great opportunity for you MCGA: I will leave the Draper blog forever if you can prove that I use the National Inquirer for info. C.mon, I know you can do it.

Gerald Childs
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 2:43 pm

The National Enquirer or are you taking license with the name? Kind of hard to prove you right or wrong if the periodical you refer to doesn’t exist.

Last edited 1 month ago by Gerald Childs
GailR
25 May 2020 10:30 pm

Northumberland County has been very fortunate so far with only 16 cases of COVID-19. Most of us have followed the guidelines laid down on social distancing (although we can probably all come up with instances of this being ignored) and this has doubtless helped. If large numbers come to the beach from outside there is a strong possibility that our caution will have been for naught. So despite the unnecessary minatory language in both the CTA’s briefing and the proposed motion for Council (which pretty well guarantees that it will not be read) I have signed the petition. And, as someone else has noted, the public washrooms will not be open.. I doubt visitors will find the portaloos. Just read about what happened to properties next to Bellwoods Park (sp?) in Toronto last Saturday.

MCGA
Reply to  GailR
26 May 2020 5:56 am

It is no small inconsistency that the Town has closed the beach bathrooms for health safety reasons BUT elected to replace them with porta potties. According to the bylaw officer at the beach, no one is assigned to clean them…not at the end of the day, not at the end of the shift, not after each use. So if you go into the LCBO, before you place your purchase on the cashier’s counter, they sanitize the counter, the credit card keypad, all surfaces that could have been infected by the previous customer. They do that to protect you. The Town won’t even sanitize a toilet seat. And, the air space in a tiny porta potty has to be more germ and virus free than a large public washroom, right. If people get infected from this form of health negligence the Town is at risk.

Silverhairedsenior
Reply to  MCGA
26 May 2020 6:25 pm

Wow, I had no idea the town installed porta potties on the beach. I would like to know if Public Health approved the installation of these with no hygienic measures in place.

JimT
Reply to  GailR
26 May 2020 6:59 am

But “If large numbers come to the beach from outside…” won’t they just be exchanging viruses among themselves and then leaving, taking the illness back to where they came from to be managed there?  

Ken Strauss
Reply to  JimT
26 May 2020 7:58 am

JimT, you are probably correct <b>unless</b> they visit the LCBO or Timmy’s or Walmart or a local grocery or… where our children and neighbours work. Even if you don’t work in retail, Cobourg residents shop in the same stores and will possibly be infected. It is far too much risk for minimal benefit to residents.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
26 May 2020 12:16 pm

IN that case, we should ban all Cobourg residents from driving to any place outside the Town for fear of getting an infection and bringing it back to Town.

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
26 May 2020 5:08 pm

You must have mapped out the out of town porta potties😂

Wally Keeler
25 May 2020 9:38 pm

“Re-opening Cobourg’s Beach to all comers will likely manifest itself in the coming months and responsibility for each and every infection, and each and every death, inflicted upon Cobourg’s residents by this plague will be laid squarely at the feet of those Town leaders,” said Nabieszko.

What a disgusting and arrogant assertion against our Town leaders who are striving to do the right thing. It presumes that our Town leaders have enough information and facts to make the correct judgement 100%, like gods.

Mr Nabieszko’s petition statement does not have a single number, metric, factoid. Talk about a lack of pragmatism; but high on theory and conjecture as exampled by “will likely manifest” as an expression of uncertainty. When you want to remove peoples freedom of movement then it behooves one to produce some concrete numbers to support such a wild imposition.

As for me, “each and every death, inflicted upon Cobourg;s residents by this plague will be laid squarely at the feet of those” dictators of the Communist Party of China. Mr Nabieszko’s grossly misdirected remark provides comfort to our enemies.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
25 May 2020 10:12 pm

So far there are over 330 Cobourg citizens who have decided caution and science should trump the moronic laments of a guy who freely admits he is on his way out and employs Russia Today as his information source. One COVIDIOT AND FULL TIME WALLY vs. 330 who know and care. Fortunately those 330 good and concerned citizens never take advise from the dumbest guy in the room.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
26 May 2020 11:39 am

You are mediocre with your personal insults, but 330 people out of a population of 20,000 indicates exceedingly little. Actually 19,270 individuals have NOT signed your petition. What a pathetic attempt to manipulate statistics. Yes, I am on my way out, compared with the vast majority of healthy Canadians under the age of 50 who have less than half of one percent risk if dying. The only virus that is spreading is the S.O.R.E. virus. It feeds on mediocrity spread by witless paranoids. Suppression, Oppression, Repression of Expression — the methods of the Communist Party of China. MCGA’s grossly inflated alarmism does more harm than good.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Wally Keeler
26 May 2020 3:47 pm

Wally, to keep things in perspective, after slightly over a day there are almost 900 signatures on the petition. For comparison, the Waterfront Survey on which Cobourg plans millions of dollars in expenditures had fewer than 2000 respondents after more than a month.

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
26 May 2020 8:17 am

Wk. There is enough information and lack of understanding of this virus to warrant closure of beach.No one has a crystal ball so its its best to look to Toronto to see what is to come here when nice weather is consistent.

Wally Keeler
25 May 2020 8:21 pm

Blocking off the beach until the end of December 2020. Why December and not November? And why not October when demand for the beach has seriously declined? What metrics were used to calculate that December 31, 2020 is the most opportune time to remove the beach ban? Actually, I suspect that no metrics were applied at all. The CTA simply made it up arbitrarily.

The majority of humans, aged 50 or less, have a risk of death of less than half a fraction of one percent. That’s quite small for those who are of working age. Why should a minority of seniors impose their bloated paranoia and deny the strong and healthy from enjoying themselves on the beach for the remainder of the entire year?

Beach banning until December 31 is ludicrous overkill. It is also entirely unscientific. The CTA should be informing people of the metrics they chose to calculate that December 31 is better than October 31 to beach ban. But they do not have any numbers, no calculations. Yet they want to impose draconian overreach measures against the majority. Sure, that’s democrazy right?

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
26 May 2020 6:56 am

Wally’s simplistic thinking married to an ignorance of history demonstrates why basic science and public health gets trodden upon. Current infection and death statistics may well be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Between 1918 and 1920 Canada suffered 55,000 Spanish flu deaths out of a total population of 8 million. The majority of those deaths occurred in the SECOND WAVE of the pandemic. That plague lasted two years, with three distinct waves. The first was in the Spring and had a relatively light impact. The second wave, that Fall, was the killer. So Wally, measuring the risk of infection and death by the first three months of this virus is not just unwise it is colossally stupid.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
26 May 2020 11:51 am

So MCGA will be here to ensure that Cobourg Beach will be blocked off for the next two years or more all because of his exaggerated and bloated paranoia. The vast majority of Canadians aged 50 and under have a less than half of one percent risk of dying and MCGA claims to be working on their benefit. If those working age people with healthy immune systems can go to work, then they can go to the beach and enjoy themselves, but there is always a petty tyrant willing to curtail everybody elses freedom on the basis of ludicrously bloated fears. The only individuals with a legitimate fear are those with compromised immune systems, such as myself, and I am wise enough with my freedom to avoid a crowded beach. I’d rather curtail my own personal freedom, than curtail the freedom of the vast majority of healthy Canadians.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2020 12:53 pm

For someone who screams democracy you sure have a problem when it is demonstrated. Almost 1,200 disagree with you and their wishes and rights should be ignored because you don’t agree. Consider running for king or Mango Mussolini at the next election.

ben
25 May 2020 6:36 pm

Yes of course the self appointed ‘taxfighters’ leap one more into the breach, but this time did they consider the fact that if we lock off the beach, and elsewhere we will blow the enforcement budget?

Ken Strauss
Reply to  ben
25 May 2020 6:54 pm

Closing the beach is not a tax issue but a possible public health disaster.

Blow the enforcement budget? A few widely publicized $800 fines (as with the recent Shuck It charge) would solve the enforcement problem with no cost to Cobourg.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
25 May 2020 8:44 pm

POSSIBLE public health disaster. Everything is possible. Going to Mars is possible. Possible is a useless word because the author doesn’t have a clue, there’s no metrics. Why wouldn’t the author use the word, probable?

Disaster for who? Only the very old who are on their way out anyway. I am on my way out. I have a wide array of comorbidities that would make my infection lethal, but I am not arrogant enough nor selfish enough to deny the vast majority of healthy their enjoyment of life. I’ve enjoyed the Park and Beach for a lifetime. I’ve had my kick at the can. And why should the vast majority of healthy people aged 50 and under who have a risk of death from the CCP virus at less than one half of one percent be denied their freedom. I much prefer taking individual responsibility for myself and avoid going to the beach or any other large gathering.

Audrey
Reply to  Wally Keeler
26 May 2020 2:12 am

My family and I have friends under the age of 50 and otherwise healthy who spent from 11 days to 3 weeks on ventilators. One of them died. The other, a 48 year old male, came off the ventilator 5 weeks ago and is still at home recovering. He has permanent lung damage. Sorry, Wally. You scorn others who make assumptions, but you’ve made the biggest one of all, ie: that people under 50 needn’t worry. We all need to worry. And you have as much of a responsibility as I do, as any of us do, to keep everyone as safe as possible. We are not at the safe point, yet. Your assertion that arrogant, selfish people are denying the vast majority of people their enjoyment of life is just off-the-wall.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Audrey
26 May 2020 12:27 pm

“that people under 50 needn’t worry” I never said any such thing. I said that people under 50, according to science, have less than one half of one percent of dying from the CCP virus. Old people with compromised immune systems such as myself have something to really worry about. When I was 9 years old I was hospitalized in Cobourg with a “viral pneumonia” that doctors said I likely caught with my incessant swimming off the beach. I went back to the beach and swam for the remainder of that season and continued to do so every year of my youth. I might add that when I was born I was given all of the regular shots for measles, diptheria, etc. According to my family I almost died from seizures and that I was given shock treatment, whatever that was. In any event, I was forbidden to have a vaccine at all, so when all my classmates in grade one lined up to get their polio shot, I was forbidden to have a shot. So Audrey, it is quite personal for me, however I respect other peoples freedom too much to curtail it just to suit my own personal… Read more »

MCGA
25 May 2020 5:35 pm

It is absolutely illogical to employ as an accurate predictor the handful of by-law violations seen during a relatively cool and empty beach weekend in May. Those of us who regularly walk or sunbathe or swim during past normal years understand how the crowds build as the summer sun warms the sand and surf. Cobourg Town leaders must recognize that what is required to beat this virus is being proactive and anticipating how the risk to the Town’s citizens will grow. What the beach decision requires is: 1. accurately recalling, from recent seasons, how the beach crowds arrive, build, congregate and slowly disperse; 2. weighing the Town’s very limited controlling and sanitary assets against that tide of beach goers; and then 3. incorporating our hard earned scientific knowledge of just how infectious and deadly this virus really is in a population such as ours. No reasonable person who makes that calculation and clearly understands the pain and damage inflicted by this virus, along with recent news reports from Toronto and elsewhere describing how social distancing evaporates in parks, boardwalks and beaches at the first sign of good weather, would conclude it is safe to open our beaches. Do the right… Read more »

Gerald Childs
25 May 2020 4:22 pm

As far as I can tell, the CTA didn’t show any names of their officers. I did find an Advisory Committee, on one of the links are they the elected officers? Perhaps I am looking in the wrong area. What I was looking for was transparency. 

Paul Pagnuelo
Reply to  Gerald Childs
25 May 2020 8:28 pm

Mr. Childs…

The CTA has five Directors and three Officers. I am Secretary, Dennis Nabieszko is President and Bryan Lambert is Treasurer. Ken Strauss and Ted Williams are Directors at large. In addition, as you mention we also have an Advisory Committee.

I must admit that I don’t understand what the transparency issue is that you raise. What we are dealing with in this instance is a public health issue. This is not a political issue. 

A number of residents have contacted us since the announcement that the beach was being re-opened. They asked for guidance on how they could best communicate with Council to let them know that the beach should remain closed in an effort to mitigate avoidable community spread of this deadly virus. We felt a petition was one way to assist them. 

Should you hold a different view on the wisdom of re-opening the beach, we respect your decision. The important thing in a democracy is the freedom to voice one’s opinion to our elected officials.

 

Gerald Childs
Reply to  Paul Pagnuelo
25 May 2020 10:09 pm

First, thank you for the information. Why the transparency comment? Frustration was most likely. I had seen the petition on a FB posting earlier in the day, and that got me searching. I have learned never to sign a petition without first looking into the sponsor. A very persuasive university student, or so he said, asked for signatures to a petition to release the USA Iranian Hostages. They got my name my signature on their appeal to the Iranian and Canadian Governments to release the hostages and my donation. The whole thing turned out to be bogus; I didn’t pursue the matter as I was embarrassed. I am aware how a democracy works. Thank you.

Last edited 1 month ago by Gerald Childs