After reports that Trudeau would visit a Café in Cobourg this afternoon at 5:45 pm, it was finally announced that he would be at the Black Cat at 4 King West at 6:45 pm. He finally arrived closer to 8:00 pm to be greeted by about 130 supporters and a dozen very noisy demonstrators. The venue was the patio of the Black Cat and all spectators were asked to wear masks but the demonstrators did not. A PA system was provided but a good part of the time, this did not help Justin get his message out. It’s not apparent how being rude and shouting down a speech helps the cause of the anti-mask and anti-vax’ers. But we do have free speech in Canada – I guess that includes free noise.
A group of supporters first gathered at the campaign office of Alison Lester at 15 King East, then they moved to the Black Cat to wait. While waiting, Mayor John Henderson had a long chat with Alison. I spotted councillors Adam Bureau, Nicole Beatty and Emily Chorley and I think Aaron Burchat was there too. RCMP security were evident and a few Cobourg Police were on the periphery.
The noise from demonstrators didn’t start until Trudeau arrived but their presence was evident by their lack of mask, conspicuous hugging and some anti-Trudeau signs and T-Shirts.
Based on the quizzical stares from passing drivers, it was evident that few knew that Justin was in Town – that’s probably because of the late notice. However, most of the local media were there so look for their reports.
It was a busy first day of campaigning for Trudeau – he started the day in Montreal and stopped at least in Napanee along the way to Cobourg.
Photos of the Event
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To all who join this conversation at this late date I say welcome, read on!
I believe you will find this blog one of the most diverse and interesting compared to other blogs recently posted on this site!
It’s included;
1) Whether or not the qualifications of Cristyia Freeland, now qualifiers her to be Canada’s Minister of Fiance and Deputy PM,;
2) Whether or not new immigrants are more prone to break the law than are established Canadians, and as a consequence whether or not they are a threat to our Canadian society based on “… peace, order and good
government!”.
3) Whether or not a minimum wage or a Universal Basic Income will be of benefit to society and the economy, or not.
I’ve contributed the best I can, while some have contributed only abusive language and generalities. But that’s the nature of open debate.
Please read on!
I said that I quit but I find it impossible to read your simplistic and seriously flawed arguments over breakfast without commenting.
The Bank of Canada targets a long-term average 2% annual increase in the CPI. However it is a RANGE of 1% to 3% and varies from year to year. For example the rate was 2.25% in 2019 but only 0.73% in 2020; it is unlikely to be exactly 2% over a few years. Looked at differently, despite the best efforts of the BoC, the CPI rose by 1% more than planned due to the increase in minimum wage. How much higher would it have been without the BoC’s best efforts to control it lower?
To suggest that the only factor causing a deviation from the target rate was the increase in the minimum wage is absurdly simplistic. Do you think that a global pandemic might have had an effect? What about CERB? What about deferring MPAC property tax increases? What about historically low interest rates?
I doubt that the increase in minimum wage has yet made its way through the whole economy since many workers have seen wage increases below the CPI.
What is the proof for your assertion that increasing the minimum wage would raise “millions from abject poverty”? An increase would move more seniors to poverty. How will a higher minimum wage help the unemployed? Workers will be replaced by automation or workers in lower wage areas or lose their jobs to keep businesses viable. All would not be rosy.
Sorry, Keith, you’ve failed at your last can kicking!
Ken
Be good enough to quote me in full. I said ” … to raise millions from an abject state of poverty to a state of povertity acceptable to the fortunate like you and me!”
All my other arguments stand. How I wish that you and I could engage in a public debate on these matters.
Keith, I don’t recall exactly what you wrote but I usually quote only what I consider to be the essential part of a comment. Unfortunately, your original post is no longer available on this blog so I’m unable to verify. Any idea why it was deleted? Apologies if what I quoted misrepresented your opinion.
The missing comment was part of a string which became primarily attacks on individuals. Per blog policy, these kinds of comments get deleted. Sometimes (as in this case) the comment is mostly OK but includes an unacceptable portion.
Keith, you may think that you have expressed convincing arguments but that doesn’t necessarily mean that your “arguments stand”; you are completely dismissing the cogent rebuttals posted by others.
Why don’t you consider this blog to be public? Members of the public are able to read, comment and vote on what is presented. What do you feel is missing?
Canada’s public, universal health care system is one of our greatest strengths. It’s part of what makes us who we are as a country. Last year, when COVID-19 raged, Erin O’Toole was asked if he would bring private, “for-profit” healthcare to Canada. He responded unequivocally: yes.
The above tweet by the Honourable Deputy Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland, was tagged as “manipulated media”. The tweet was a prologue to an attached video edited in such a manner that
“was deceptively spliced to make O’Toole’s answer seem much different than what he actually said in the full passage, where he makes clear that “universal access remains paramount.“ Later on Sunday while speaking in New Brunswick the prime minister apparently said “shame on you” to O’Toole for supporting for-profit health care during the pandemic.”
Freeland is a very smart cookie, but it did not stop her from smearing her political opponent with a false narrative, a smear facilitated by the omission of truth, the whole truth, not half truths intended to mislead the public. Of course, all political parties indulge in dirty tricks, especially during elections. So Tweedledee Freeland peddles a half truth that Tweedledum Trudeau echoes, doubling down on the manipulative half-truth. Yes, Freeland is an extraordinarily accomplished individual who is clearly manipulative of Canadian voters.
Wally
What you don’t seem to understand is the extent to which your name calling diminishes your argument. “Tweedledee Freeland” and “Tweedledum Trudeau”? That’s not poetry Wally that’s abuse, pure and simple! You’ve read my contention that there’s no such thing as absolute freedom.That applies to those who consider themselves poets.
Disagree with Freeland and Trudeau fine, make your arguments known. But disrespect them? insult them? That is totally unexceptable! That’s the point at which your post became a personal rant saying more about you than them!
Not only that but your abuse is now associated with the extreme behaviour of the protesters at Cobourg and now Bolton, Ont.
You consider yourself a poet.? This is highly destructive language. You accuse Freeland of being ‘highly manipulative of Canadian voters”. What are you talking about? Explain! More to the point … What is your problem?
Keith Oliver: “You accuse Freeland of being ‘highly manipulative of Canadian voters’”.
You appear to be as manipulative as the Honourable Deputy Minister. No where did I accuse the Honourable Deputy Minister of being “highly manipulative”? You even have the arrogance to place that word – highly – in quotation marks, manipulating the language to make it look like I was being actually quoted. Let me repeat the actual words I posted, asserting that the Honourable Deputy Minister was “clearly manipulative of Canadian voters.”
Can you see that Mr Oliver? There is a significant difference between my word, ‘clearly’ and your manipulated, bloated word, ‘highly’. Twitter tagged the tweet of the Deputy Prime Minister as “manipulated media”. It was Twitter that asserted that it was manipulative, and I expressed agreement; it was clearly manipulative.
What was the motivation of the Deputy Prime Minister? Well, who was the target of that manipulative tweet? Erin O’Toole, a political contender. The Deputy Prime Minister wanted to do political harm to Erin O’Toole. The Deputy Prime Minister didn’t discredit Erin O’Toole’s policy with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The Deputy Prime Minister did it with half-truths. The Deputy Prime Minister’s intent was to turn Canadian voters against Erin O’Toole by using half-truths. She was caught out by Twitter and her missive was tagged as manipulative.
…………
“You’ve read my contention that there’s no such thing as absolute freedom.”
Yes I have Mr Oliver.
You’ve read my assertion that “censorship causes more social damage than does free speech.”
Mr Oliver
What you don’t seem to understand is that the extent of your mediocrity in language diminishes your arrogant presumptuousness concerning anything relating to poetry or poets. I will let my mentor, Irving Layton, explain it. Irving Layton was one of Canada’s greatest poets, and imagine my delight when I was invited into his home when I visited Montreal.
WASP isn’t a race or people: it’s a state of mind. So well-laundered and bourgeois, so deformed by comforts and brainwashed by conventional schooling, art is eternally beyond its reach.”
— Globe & mail, June 27/73, review of Last Tango in Paris
“I think that imagination is under attack or under the pressure of a technological, scientific society in which the emphasis is very much on facts, so that the life of imagination, of make-believe, or play is considered unworthy, trivial, or frivolous.”
— A Georgian Supplement, 1965
“I don’t think poetry is ever going to be a mass art and if it becomes a mass art then I don’t think it’s worth very much. What are the popular poets? They’re the ones who say the acceptable, agreeable, conventional things that people want said about birth and death and love. The role of the poet as I see it is to warn, to illuminate, to make people uncomfortable, to wake them up. To shake them and wake them up, that’s the role of the poet.
— Ruminations, Taking Sides, 1977
“I want people to wake up. I want them to have an attack of personality.”
— 1964, ibid
“…creativity is antagonistic, is in eternal opposition to everything that would destroy creativity and introduce those lifeless structures that are inimical to growth…
— The Malahat Review, October 1972
Wally
Your quotes are interesting but have nothing to do with my assertion that your name calling, ie “Tweedledee Freeland” and “Tweedledum Trudeau” is childish and demeans you more than it does them.
Diverting the discussion to the difference between the words “clearly” and “highly” is a distraction.
Concerning more private enterprise involved in our National Healthcare System, that is clearly O’Toole’s intent. What we need is more implementation of the November, 2002, Recommendations by the Romanow Commission on Canadian Healthcare
More private healthcare means more wealth being diverted into private hands than public service as well as the rich becoming able to jump the cue.
Read the “Conclusion” chapter in Freeland’s best selling book “Plutocrates” and learn the difference between those who are “inclusive” and those who are “extractive” in the economy and the way that trend can ultimately destroy a true democracy.
Keith, why does allowing private healthcare divert wealth into private hands? Would not private treatment place less of a burden on the public system? The rich are able to “jump the queue” for subsidized housing. Why is that acceptable but purchasing private healthcare is not?
The health care system consists of health professionals and lots and lots of bureaucraps. Altogether, there is a virtual absence of entrepreneurs. Individuals who work in the business and entrepreneurial services that have developed extraordinary efficiencies. Govt bureaucrazy doesn’t know how to do this. The idea is not to supplant the current public health care system, but to supplement and deburden it.
Ken
The greatest number of Covid deaths among seniors in long-term care occured in those establishments owned by private enterprise. In an unusual report published by the military based on the experience of its temporary deployment of military emergency care workers, supplies were in short supply, residents under fed and many left to stew in their own waste.
In some cases where these conditions were allowed to exist, for profit Board Members were given bonuses while testing inside the long-term care facilities they owned was completely inadequate. They mandated a short hour work week for personal care workers (PCW) in order to avoid paying 40 hour work week benefits such as pension plans and paid holidays, etc, just like WalMart does.
As a result PCWs had to move from one LTC establishment to another in order to bring home a living wage and thereby caused the virus to spread. My next door neighbour is such a PCW and filled me in on other details.
My hope is that all LTC establishments will become part of our National Health Care system.
Contrary to the belief that governments cannot perform as efficiently as private enterprise, a recent study which ranks various countries according to their efficient use of dollars in delivering healthcare, the UK National Healthcare System is ranked10th, our health care system is 23rd and the US for-profit system is 30th. The life-span of both the average American male and female is three years less than that of Canadians.
Keith, if I need medical services — hip replacement, cataract surgery, etc — my concern is timely treatment rather than “efficient use of dollars”. I should have the right to use my own savings to purchase prompt access to needed services rather than being forced to either queue or travel to another country. I suspect that your attitude would change when you are faced with the same choices.
Ken
I believe that the life of others is equally important to mine. That belief is what makes a democracy work.
Two years and nine month ago I had a full knee replacement. It was bone on bone and my leg was starting to bow outward. As you age past 80 you are less likely to be operated on. At age 81 I was operated on within 5 weeks. Took 12 months for knee to fully recover. Result was better than expected.
We have a great but never perfect healthcare system. Personal wealth and the for-profit interests can degrade it.
One model that could be acceptable is the Sholdice private clinic north of Toronto that specializes in hernia repair including the most exotic kind. Had two ingival (sp?) hernias repaired there. Great treatment. They were paid the standard National Healthcare rate which was less than one third of what it cost a US friend of mine.
Keith, it seems strange that you would cite the private Shouldice Hernia Hospital as an example of superior care. Note that they accept patients even from Ontario without requiring prior, gatekeeper, approval and attendant waiting time.
Ken
At this late date, and considering it’s after 6:00 pm and therefore well past my bedtime, let me summon up what energy I have left this day and tell you what you don’t seem to know about the Shouldice Clinic
It was formed by two doctors who gave medical examinations to Canadians volunteering for service in WWII. They realized how many were afflicted with hernias and so set up the Shouldice Clnic. Over the years since it has gained an international reputation for excellence in the repair of all kinds of hernias.
Those who come from outside Canada were charged the international rate which is approx four times our National Healthcare rate, something like we do for foreign students entering our internatiomaly respected post-seconadary, university system.
That’s what allowed their business model to exist and charge Canadians the going rate within our National Healthcare System … and good on them.
I’ll accept private enterprise into our National Healthcare System if, and only if, it follows the Shouldice model … but I will vigorously oppose any for-profit corruption of our Healthcare System as a rational person could imply from O’Toole’s intentionally vague statements.
When I came to be treated for my first ingival (?) hernia Shouldice could have charged me the international rate, but because I was a Canadian citizenn, and even though I was living outside the country, they gave up the opportunity to make more money and iinstead charged me the Canadian rate.
I was impressed. So this is what it means that a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian
Ken … I’m looking forward to your response!`
Ken
Sorryr but at this late date in John’s blog I can’t resist.
I could give a damn about how much wealth you own … your life, your well being, is no greater in overall importance than that of any other Canadian.
Regardless of any circumstance including whether you have a ring through your nose and wear a black leather vest, or wear a shaul over your head, in the words of PM Justin Treadau, on the run-up to the 2015 Fedral Election “a Canadian is a Canadian, is a Canadian”.
I agree that a Canadian is a Canadian. Further, none should be allowed to control another’s medical treatment options for ideological reasons; I strongly support allowing both public and private care.
Ken
My position is not about Ideaology it’s about equality. Can’t understand why you don’t understand that. I’m sure we’ll have this same disagreement over other issues in the future.
Keith, you say that you’re concerned about equality. Some have better food than others. Some have better jobs than others. Some have better houses than others. Some have better cars than others. Some have better clothes than others. Some have better vacations than others. Some have better… Do you condone these inequalities? If not, what are you doing about them?
Ken
It’s simple raise the minimum wage to a level that ensures a basic quality of housing, food and education for the young.
Increase the taxes of the fortunate like you and I to pay for it.. It’s simple!
In the meantime our glorious leader Doug Ford cancelled such an experiment, and we are all the poorer!
No, Keith, it is not simple! Raising the minimum wage will make things more expensive and plus more difficult for our youth and inexperienced workers to find any jobs. For many low-pay jobs a machine is an alternative; Mcdonalds and other fast food places are now testing automated food prep machines. Increasing taxes will result in demands for higher wages and… Simplistic solutions will make us all poorer!
KO:
Raising the minimum wage does nothing beyond the short term to increase the financial position of the recipients. The market is efficient and soon (6-12 months) adapts to absorb the additional money. Prices rise as merchants and service providers claim their piece of the pie. Income taxes claw back the government’s share
In short order, the minimum wage earners have lost their additional (short term) increase in disposable income (income remaining after deduction of taxes and other mandatory charges, available to be spent or saved as one wishes) and are no better off than before the increase.
So the poorer amongst us will be better off if the minimum wage was never raised! Somehow I fail to see the logic in that.
I believe that Bryan’s point was that raising the minimum wage simply makes things cost more with no permanent benefit to minimum wage workers. Those with savings or living on a fixed income lose. How could it be otherwise?
Ben:
I did not suggest “better off”. Those are your words.
I suggested that their situation was not improved.
I would be very interested in any study or analysis that you could point to that show the minimum wage increases of the past 10 years have resulted in the minimum wage earners being better off; that is, having more disposable (discretionary) income.
Interesting discussion, over to you, Ben.
OK here goes: but it depends on what side you are on. For instance googling the topic gives you opposing views from the Fraser Institute (we know what side they are on) – https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/minimum-wages-dont-help-poor and one from the Toronto Star, https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/08/13/raising_ontarios_minimum_wage_makes_good_economic_sense.html
However looking at it from my point of view raising the minimum wage puts a ton of money into the economy every week as those minimum wage earners spend every bit of it on getting by. That money will create jobs and wealth.
On the distaff side we have the Chambers of Commerce and the small business people saying they will have to lay off workers because of reduced margins. To that I say if any business cannot afford to pay their workers a living wage they should not be in business!
Overall, if we have to pay more for goods because of a minimum wage increase I would say go for it – we should not be proud of our standard of living based on low wages.
Ben, snide remark aside, the Fraser Institute article supports their conclusions with facts rather than relying on emotional arm waving as one would expect from The Star.
I’m unsure how minimum wage relates to women or weaving but…
A business can pay staff more if their customers are willing to pay more for their product or service. Often customers are unwilling.
Most of the poorest people in Cobourg have a home to live in. A home with heat, electricity, a toilet and hot water. Compared to the global community that is a high standard of living. My father was raised in a house with heat (if you planned ahead and cut fire wood), no electricity, an outhouse and hot water (if you hauled the water in and heated in on the wood stove). He worked hard and was better off than many. We should be proud, and thankful, for our high standard of living and the choices we have. Our health care system is not perfect but we can get a vaccine for free if we want it. The poorest among us will still be our poorest with an increase in minimum wage. What would happen if we help the poor get jobs (there are many available), manage their money and to be thankful for what they have?
Ben:
Interesting reply.
As Ken notes, you reference the Fraser Institute which clearly supports my assertion “..While poverty activists, politicians, and policy makers who push for higher minimum wages might do so with good intentions, the unpleasant reality is that minimum wage increases don’t help the poor. “, and you cite the Toronto Star “…Raising Ontario’s minimum wage makes good economic sense…”. I appreciate that you provide references for both sides, although the Star article, like your prior comment, is devoid of supporting facts/studies. Emotion and feel good running wild.
You wrote “…To that I say if any business cannot afford to pay their workers a living wage they should not be in business!…” I take it then that your profound economic solution is that these businesses should be closed down and their workers turfed out onto the street to fend for themselves. Thank you for recommending this outstanding socially progessive solution. I’m sure the minimum wage earners will be rallying in support of it.
Further “…if we have to pay more for goods because of a minimum wage increase I would say go for it…”. And so onto the treadmill: raise wages – raise prices, raise wages – raise prices, repeat ad nauseam. A lot of effort to remain in the same spot. The minimum wage folks are no better off. Their pay increase would be absorbed by increased prices Perhaps you could afford this but I doubt that those on fixed income and/or social pensions could.
Finally “…we should not be proud of our standard of living based on low wages…”
I agree with you on this. Our standard of living should definitely not be on the backs of low wage earners. Surely we can can do better. Creativity, innovation, risk taking, productivity, work ethic; these are the drivers of wealth creation and a higher standard of living, not minimum wage increases.
Universal Basic Income, as proposed by both the Liberals and NDP and apparently favoured by Ben, is not part of the solution.
Ken I would disagree and there are enough studies around to prove that a UBI is beneficial to a civil society – I will challenge you to look them up, but start with the study done on Manitoba in the 70s and a couple from the ill-fated experiment cancelled by your hero and my antichrist – Doug Ford.
Ben, I’m certain that there are studies proving that welfare states are beneficial to some. Yes, I’m aware of Trudeau senior’s Dauphin Mincome trial. Sadly, as Ms. Thatcher famously observed, “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”
That’s the problem isn’t it Ken, Some people just don’t give a damn about the Others!
So you disregarded the facts in the study and replied with a quote from a person of dubious repute!
I really don’t understand your stance on this. You have delivered an impression of yourself as basing everything, every issue on how much it costs you, or the people that think like you.
A UBI will cheaper when you consider where the money to fund it would come from – OAS, GIS Welfare payments and other income support programmes.
So if it is going to be cheaper overall you should be in favour of it!
Ben, I do not believe that any welfare scheme in which 30% of the population (as in the “successful” Dauphin trial) gets taxpayer funded payments is desirable or acceptable to those who would have to fund it.
Ken
I agree with your list of factors leading to wealth creation.
My one caveat is that unleashed, without regulation or restraints of any kind, all wealth will become more and more consentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people, and that will result in the corruption of our equalitarian, liberal, inclusive democracy.
That I will vigorously work against with all the strength I have left!
To keep our conversation focused and productive … do you agree or not agree, and if so … say why? Otherwise have the courtesy to drop out of this conversation!
Ken … read the history of economics which is essentially an account of human behaviour in the market place over the past. That includes Karl Marx, noted Canadian histories Innes and , and . Be sure to include our Deputy Prime Minister Cristyia Freeland’s international best seller “Plutocrates, the Rise of the Wealthy and the Fall of Everyone Else”. It dates back to the history of the rise and fall of the Venitian Republic and continues to this day.
As I have said, become informed, restrain yourself from advocating from a total misunderstanding of what creates poverty, what the poor aspire to and your postings will become a more important contribution what John Draper has created for public … Ie an opportunity to engage in respectful public debate!
Ken
Got cutoff befoer adding to the 5th paragraph, the fifth line, the second name ofan internationally revered economic historian besides Innes, Donald Creighton.
“You wrote “…To that I say if any business cannot afford to pay their workers a living wage they should not be in business!…” I take it then that your profound economic solution is that these businesses should be closed down and their workers turfed out onto the street to fend for themselves. Thank you for recommending this outstanding socially progessive solution. I’m sure the minimum wage earners will be rallying in support of it.”
Yep I wrote those words and stand by them. In my experience those small businesses that rely on minimum wage workers are usually start-ups and large corporate service and retail – who can afford to pay more but exploit instead and a few that are vanity efforts by entrepreneurs hoping to make the big time. I wish those folks well and encourage them to raise wages as they grow. But in the words of the mythical low-income worker, (for all I know it is probably not a myth) “I know there are plenty of low wage jobs I have three of them!!”
To Ken and Bryan
Recently Ontario raised the minimum wage by increments, but not all the way. The economy did not collapse and where prices increased in proportion to the benefits received by low wage workers, they benefited and we barely noticed.
What few seem to realize, or close their eyes to, is how expensive poverty is in terms of social instability and disruption, and the expensive attempts at remediation usually funded by your tax dollars.
It costs over 100,000 a year of your tax dollars to house a convicted criminal. More evidence of government inefficiency you will probably say?
It’s hard enough raising a family, keeping a marriage alive, without having to worry about stable housing, education for a child, whether your car will make it through the winter.
A cashier at my grocery store told me how much the temporary 2.00 an hour raise at the beginning of the pandemic meant to them … being able to buy basics they could otherwise ill afford, basics that you and I consider essential!
Low income folks spend and stimulate the economy, increase demand which inspires more efficiency.. High income folks invest their excess wealth with the objective of winning more wealth. During the pandemic the wealthiest 1 percent made major gains.
The increasing disparity between rich and poor is a major threat to our liberal democracy. That’s what Trump and the threatening discord in the US, now Hungry, and possibly Poland is all about.
I support a basic descent living wage and for the reasons given above, should you.
Take care!
Mr Oliver posted, “It costs over 100,000 a year of your tax dollars to house a convicted criminal. More evidence of government inefficiency you will probably say?”
So a foreign national comes to Canada, gets landed immigrant status, commits a violent crime, is convicted and incarcerated for 5 years @ $500,000.
The country, from where the criminal came, incarcerates their criminals at a cost of $25,000 per year. Fly the convicted violent offender to their home country at Canada’s expense and pay for the incarceration of the criminal at Canada’s expense. The home country will be happy to take their violent criminal back if we pay for the incarceration. Canada thus saves approximately $350,000 for this 5-yr bad person.
That is worth looking at overall. Just how many foreign nationals is Canada hosting in our prisons at our taxpayer’s expense? Do we know? Should we know?
So there you have a single example of “government inefficiency”.
Government is saddled with bureaucrazy run by bureaucraps burdened with double dotted i’s and double crossed t’s and this is how fresh ideas are suffocated out of existence. And then there are govern mental lapdogs or lap-puppies.
To Wally
Where do you get your nonsense abouti immigrant criminals? Either prove it or take your accusations back and apologize! That’s what a respectable, descent person would do.
And now we have your slanderous name calling once again! “Bureaucracy”? “Bureaucraps”? As I said before Wally this isn’t poetry this is abuse!
Mr Oliver
For many years I worked with immigrants in Toronto, especially Romany refugees during the early nineties after the commies fell in East Europe. That’s where I get my “nonsense”, Mr Oliver, I am sick and tired of your bloated self-righteousness and accusations. I know what I have done concerning immigrants, but you do not. You know nothing about what my activities have been, and just because you demand an answer from me doesn’t mean that I will cater to your bigotry and intolerance.
You are so smitten with with your self-righteousmess, that you can’t even quote my spelling correctly. I wrote “bureaucrazy” not ‘bureaucracy’ as you falsely wrote. Wow! And to think of the childishmess of your temper tantrum over a couple words.
“As I said before Wally this isn’t poetry this is abuse!“
You know nothing about poetry, yet you are arrogantly presumptuous to slander me with your ignorance of poetry. Your writing style is as mediocre, brittle and boring as a cinder block.
The thing I notice about you, Mr Oliver, is that you are fundamentally an oppressor, an oppressor of free speech, an oppressor of creativity, an oppressor of the imagination, and an oppressor of ideas and language play. And I will remind you once again that censorship causes more social damage than does free speech.
Wally
Your personal attacks aside, the simple fact is that there is less crime committed by the immigrant population than by the established population and that their children are better educated than their peers. Look it up.
Mr Oliver
Your personal smears aside, the notion that immigrants commit less crime than our homegrown is irrelevant. Even if immigrants cause less crime, does not negate the fact that there are immigrants who do commit crimes, including violent crimes. And those convicted violent foreign national felons are the ones that I would apply my notion of deporting and paying for their incarceration in their home country. Canada reduces the expense of imprisonment, reduces any crowding in our prison system, and gets rid of a bad individual who is not a Canadian citizen. Good riddance.
So, instead of going on to a righteous rant smearing me, argue with relevant facts. All that you have presented, Mr Oliver, is echo the talking points of the glorious progressive narrative. Drop your ideological blinders and face a few facts, Mr Oliver.
I, a mere civilian, suggested an idea that the government should look into the idea I proposed because it would reduce costs.
Mr Oliver posted, “Where do you get your nonsense abouti(sic) immigrant criminals? Either prove it or take your accusations back and apologize! That’s what a respectable, descent(sic) person would do.“
A decent person stands up for the truth no matter the smears directed towards them. The real question is why are you spewing nonsense about immigrants? I worked with immigrants for many years in Toronto, including helping many of the despised Romany settle here. That’s where I get my nonsense Mr Oliver.
I know enough from the mouths of immigrants to know that they would find my notion agreeable, and yours as nonsense. They came to Canada to flee corruption and criminality in their own countries, and would be pleased to see a criminal felon removed from Canada, even if that felon came from their own country.
So you, Mr Oliver, take back your personal smears and apologize.
Let me ask you this Mr Oliver. Are you asserting that throughout Canada’s prison system there is not a single foreign national or landed immigrant that has been convicted of a violent crime?. I know that there are Chinese triad members that have been convicted and imprisoned. I know that there are Russian gang members who immigrated to Canada after the fall of the commies, and it was a pleasure to be imprisoned in a comfortable Canadian prison, rather than live the hard scrabble lethal life in Moscow. Back in the day our prisons held members of the Italian mafia. Every immigrant group of people have criminals, just as Canada grows our own criminals.
You complain that it costs $100,000 per year to incarcerate those violent foreign national criminals. My plan reduces that expense. My plan is more efficient than the current govern mental situation.
Why are you opposed to a civilian suggesting a more efficient plan to the government that reduces the burden on the taxpayers who needlessly pay $100,000 per year?
Wally … You invited me to enforce my statements with facts so here they are.
With the normal number of immigrants arriving in Canada at 400,000 per year, the Canadian per capita immigration rate is 3x that of the US, yet our incidents of violent crime, ie homicides, and aggravated assault and robbery, is half that of the US.
Markham, with a population of1/3 million, close to a third of whom are of Asian decent, hosts the Pacific Mall, the largest Asian oriented mall in North America if not the world. Yet Markham is rated the second safest city in Canada. It is testimony to the fact that “diversity is our strength”!
As to shipping those convicted of a crime abroad and saving money, you miss the fundamental point that our justice system focuses on remediation, not revenge.
If it’s wrong for an individual to take anothers’ life, why is it not the same wrong for the State to do so, especially when there are a number of cases where individuals have been wrongfully convicted? That’s what is meant by “a Canadian, is a Canadian, is a Canadian”.
Over to you!
Keith, utter nonsense! You claim “proof” by comparing US/Canadian immigration rates to US/Canadian crime rates. Yet you completely ignore all other factors — social programs, income disparity, proximity to drug producers, social mores, ethnicity and selection of the immigrants. You comment on the Asian population of Markham yet you don’t mention Jane/Finch or Brampton or Burnaby or… It is embarrassing that an educated person would think that they’ve “proven” anything.
A Canadian is a Canadian wereas a foreign national is not a Canadian. You are making a red herring argument. I never suggested that a Canadian be transferred to another country for imprisonment. I suggested that convicted felons who are not Canadian be transferred to the prison system of their home country.
I am all for remediation for every Canadian felon. When we transfer a foreign national to their home country for imprisonment, it will be the responsibility of their prison system to provide remedial services. I did not suggest this idea with the motive of “revenge”, so you can drop that disgusting innuendo. I offered the idea because it reduces expenses, something that the burdened taxpayer would appreciate.
Btw, your facts are totally irrelevant to my idea of transferring convicted felons to their home country. Coming to Canada from any part of the world is a privilege, not a right. Canadian citizenship is a privilege, not a right. The vast majority of immigrants become law-abiding Canadians. But there are the few that violate our laws again and again, and sometimes violently. That is intolerable. I will not stand for my fellow Canadians being hurt by those non-Canadians. If they get two years less a day, then they get sent to a provincial reformatory, but if two years or more, then transfer them to their home country and put them on a border list preventing them from entering Canada ever again.
Mr Oliver, try to post facts that will discredit my idea, instead of that irrelevant fury and fluff you post. Try to be on point for once. All you have been doing is flying the flag of your virtues.
Wally, a felon is a USA term. In Canada, serious crimes are classified as Indictable. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/victims-victimes/court-tribunaux/offences-infractions.html
noted
Wally
As of now we’re going round in circles and that includes with Ken. I have other things to do. My points were/are as clear as I could make them. I’m sure we’ll all meet again. In the meantime please vote Liberal.
Alison Lester, whom I know as my lawyer, has a great background, was born and raised here, has good values, is well organized and would make a great representative.
Keith, we’re only going around in circles because you have not yet provided any logical substantiation for your erroneous notions.
Sadly Alison is the Liberal candidate which largely negates any good qualities she may have.
Your candidate is a lawyer and well organized? Who is allowing those automobile full back window blocking campaign posters to be installed. That’s illegal!!
jimq (or whoever you are)
What are you talking about? Wally, Ben, Bryan and I, even Dubious and Frenchie, are trying to have a somewhat orderly yet difficult conversation and you bring up this?
Keith, I don’t follow your logic. You wrote “…and where prices increased in proportion to the benefits received by low wage workers, they benefited and we barely noticed.” If prices increased in proportion to the benefits received by low wage workers then they received no net benefit (nor loss). Those whose wages did not increase were worse off due to higher prices. Why is that a desirable result?
You appear concerned about “the 1%”. According to https://www.narcity.com/top-earners-in-canada-heres-how-much-the-1-make in Ontario being in the top 1% means an annual income of more than $514,300. Are many Cobourg residents so lucky?
Ken
The math in support of the benefit to low income workers is pretty straightforward. Raise their income by 30 percent (now talk on the campaign trail of $20 minimum wage), prices increase by 2 percent. Workers spent it all. With increased demand more jobs are created. Everyone affected pays more purchase and income taxes. The benefits to workers of raising the minimum wage is all a matter of scale and works in favour of a raise.
With governments supports now still in effect and fewer than expected going back to work, we need to know exactly why. The sub-text is that they are lazy and will take advantage of any support in any way they can.
One individual I know has taken an elderly parent out of long term care and is looking after her. Instead of being in a warehouse and sleeping all day, she is now being truly cared for, experiencing meaningful interaction with family and a few remaining friends and the results have been amazing. Thinks more clearly, remembers more, much more interesting to talk to, gets more physical exercise instead of sleeping the day away, and will probably make fewer demands on our healthcare system.
The benefits of a guaranteed minimum income could extend far beyond our limited imagiination and ignorance concerning the behaviour of others.
What is your source for “raise income 30% and prices rise 2%”? Have you considered that supervisors often make little more than staff supervised? If you raise income at the bottom the increase will ripple to the top. Have you considered that increasing wages will make imports from low wage China, India and Mexico even more attractive? Have you considered that increasing the wages of the unskilled will make self-checkouts, robots and AI more compelling? Have you considered that increasing wages will make it more difficult for youth to get their first jobs? Have you considered… The impact of a higher minimum wage is not as benign as you appear to think!
Ken
The increase in the minimum wage of approx 30 percent occurred when Ontario rate went from 11.00 to 14.00+. Figure of 2 percent was being conservative (I do have my moments.) The actual increase in prices generally is closer to 1 percent.
Can you imagine what it must be like for those in the US who are still trapped at a minimum wage of 7.00 an hour? This when the inscription on the Statue of Liberty reads …
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free!”
The only line left out of Emma Lazarus’s poem is “… so we an exploit them to do all the dirty work at practically no cost to us, the more fortunate!”
Talk about hypocrisy!
Mr Oliver:
These are the real lines from Emma Lazarus’s sonnet, New Colossus:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Nowhere does the poet say, “Bring me your and your poor, yearning to be free!” You mangled that quotation up as badly as the President of the United States of America mangled his; https://youtu.be/PpMAd7uXMSY
Several times on this blog you have pontificated about what poetry is or is not and what poets should not be doing, etc. It is an arrogant presumption to make about yourself. You deliberately mangled the words of the great American poet Emma Lazarus. The disrespect is further deepened because you couldn’t even be bothered to Google the quotation up to make sure that you got it right. And you also disrespect the readers of this blog when you pose and strut around as an educated person, building yourself up as knowledgeable about poetry and here you mangle the words of a poet. Shame on you. TALK ABOUT HYPOCRAZY!
Wally
Once more you have tried to divert the true essence of what I attempted to convey about the true nature and threat to our egalitarian liberal democracy as posed by unfetered capitalism.
It was all engendered by a conversation with others about the merits of establishing a respectful and effective minimum wage. Congratulations!
Keith, I believe that your numbers are incorrect. The general minimum wage increased from $11.60 to $14.00 (20.6%) on January 1, 2018 and increased further to $14.25 on October 1, 2020 for a total increase of about 23% rather than the 30% that you mentioned.
More importantly, you are completely ignoring pandemics, changes in monetary policy, immigration rates and dozens of other factors that affect the cost of goods. Further, wage changes do not immediately ripple through the economy but take years. According to the Bank of Canada, the cumulative CPI change from 2017 (pre-minimum wage increase) to 2021 is 9.13% rather than the 1% that you mentioned.
Even with accurate data, simplistic analysis seldom produces useful results for extremely complex systems like our economy. Using erroneous data and flawed analysis is worse than useless.
Ken
So you admit that the total increase in the minimum wage until Oct 2020 was less than the 30 percent I guessed at. You state it was actually 23 percent. Thanks for reinforcing the point I was trying to make.
Further the cumulative CPI rate change you quote of 9+ percent is totally irrelevant to the increased cost of goods and services over that time period. I completely discounted the influence of the pandemic and other abnormal factors you sight.
As I posted earlier, this conversation is starting to get too time consuming. I’d love to debate these issues, face-to-face with you in a public venue, but unfortunately that:s not possible in the foreseeable future.
Keith, please help me to understand: Your using erroneous information and ignoring all effects of the pandemic reinforces your point? And that increases in the CPI is totally irrelevant to the increased cost of goods and services?
I give up!
Mr Oliver
I see you went back and corrected your mangling of the poem. That’s a good person. Now do not mangle poetry again.
Mr Oliver composed, “… so we an(sic) exploit them to do all the dirty work at practically no cost to us, the more fortunate!”
What incredible arrogance to suggest that you are capable of writing anything worthy to attach to such a beautiful sonnet. Your suggested line reeks of mediocrity, because it is political and not poetical. You are contaminated with partisan politics and it clouds people’s thinking and turns them into prosebags.
The great Welch poet, Dylan Thomas, knew about people who were prosebags. This is what he had to say, “I came to love words more and to hate the heavy hands that knocked them about, the thick tongues that [had] no feel for their multitudinous tastes, the dull and botching hacks who flattened them out in a colourless and insipid paste, the pedants who made them moribund and pompous as themselves.”
Again, talk about your hypocrazy!
A rope is cheap, can be used many times and would reduce carbon footprints.
Dubious (or whatever your name is)
And what of the wrongfully convicted? Or do you care?
When the minimum wage was increased in Ontario some businesses reduced hours to keep payroll costs down. It is unfortunate that a pilot program was cancelled before we got the results. However, with CERB, and the newer benefits, there are people that do not work when work is available. The available jobs may not be very desirable but they do exists. With rights there has to be responsibilities. Everybody that is able to work has the responsibility to work. Yesterday I did some work while people I know went camping or stayed home in their rental. I own a house because I worked and saved which I continue to do so I can keep it. Raising minimum wage and increasing taxes may be simple but knowing what the results will be is not.
To those concerned about raising the minimum wage.
We’ve been through an experience lately that proved raising the minimum wage does not have the dire consequences some on this blog believe will happen.
Approximately 3 years ago the hourly wage was increased by about 30 per cent. In my opinion the increase should have been put into effect over a longer period of time, allowing more room for business to adjust. Some business closed but overall the employment rate did not fall, we still have the 10th largest ecomony in the world and we are that much closer to having a “Just Society”.
Keith, I’m certain that you realize that it is almost impossible to draw conclusions in an experiment with numerous changing factors. Have you forgotten recent changes — rising minimum wage, CERB, changes to EI, reduced immigration, closures of entertainment venues, closures of restaurants, rising carbon taxes, eviction moratorium, working from home, closures of schools, large increases in the cost of almost everything, closures of day care, home schooling, travel restrictions, …? How can you possibly separate the effect of a minimum wage increase?
This is my last comment to you Mr Oliver.
I said the Deputy Prime Minister “is clearly manipulative of Canadian voters”.
Mr Oliver replied, “You (Wally Keeler) accuse Freeland of being ‘highly manipulative of Canadian voters”.
Mr Oliver deliberately ignored my word clearly and accused me of using the more inflammatory word highly, thereby grossly misrepresenting what I said. Why are you the kind of person who puts your words into other peoples mouths? Don’t you know that it is harmful to misrepresent things.
Mr Oliver now asserts that, “diverting the discussion to the difference between the words “clearly” and “highly” is a distraction.
Mr Oliver, you are sounding more and more like the President of the United States of America. You seem so confused and dazed. You deliberately manipulated my words with the intent to denigrate me personally. That is a not a nice thing to do.
Mr Oliver said, “Tweedledee Freeland” and “Tweedledum Trudeau” is childish and demeans you more than it does them.
I agree that it was childish. But more childish than that mediocre quip, is your temper tantrum over my Tweedles, to go on a major righteous scold for something so insignificant and to top it off, to fraudulently put words in my mouth that I never said. That is the same kind of manipulation that the Deputy Prime Minister indulges and that the Prime Minister echoes.
Mr Oliver said, “…your abuse is now associated with the extreme behaviour of the protesters at Cobourg and now Bolton, Ont.”
That is a disgusting assertion to make Mr Oliver. I wasn’t near any of those locations. I did see the videos and heard a lot of foul language, a whole lot of foul language. And now you come along and smear me with such an association. Guilt by association – shame on you Mr Oliver. That is the kind of language manipulation I associate with the current administration of the United States of America.
Wally
I apologize if my remarks have offended you personally. That was not my intention. I was trying to diswade you from name calling which in my opinion undermines the ability of others to take your arguments seriously.
And what is to be said to the many people who did not interpret the Deputy Prime Minister’s words as manipulative?
marya, anyone so lacking in listening comprehension skills should not be voting.
Anyone with listening comprehension skills noted that there was a clear pledge to dramatically change the status quo for Health Care in Canada.
In addition, it is all Political Theatre. For-Profit Health Care in Canada is already here. It is always Politicians who confuse the issues and stifle attempts for reform.
marya, is the current system working perfectly? Is the current system affordable? Are you happy with wait times? Can things be improved?
The current system is not perfect and in reality it never can or will be.
marya, of course things are not perfect! Sadly, many are unwilling to explore how things can be improved.
The blog states there were 130 participants at this Liberal rally lead by Trudeau. The current restrictions in Ontario is 100 people at an outdoor event. Why is Trudeau not following the rules? Why wasn’t he charged? Why is he above everyone else?
Because he is part of the progressive elite. ‘Obama Variant’ Strikes Martha’s Vineyard: Super-Spreader Birthday Bash Overwhelms Island’s Only Emergency Room (freebeacon.com)
Well, “led by” actually. “Lead” is a heavy metal used by plumbers and such.
Another spin for the record. Justin Trudeau faced with onslaught of boos and heckling during first campaign stop in Cobourg, Ont. – Rebel News
Wally
Not sure why you posted the Rebel News site as a source of information. I too was disappointed that 1) Trudeau was so late which happened in 2015 in Port Hope and 2) in lack of opportunity to ask questions … but how do you decide who gets that privledge under those circumstances? I want to hear questions from citizens, not the media reps.
The hecklers were completely disrespectful, a quality in our public discourse we seem to be losing. If they really believe in free-speach why did they try to deny that “right” to Trudeau?
Good to meet you. Hope your appointment went well.
Mr Oliver posted, “Not sure why you posted the Rebel News site as a source of information.”
I’d like to know why this matters to you? Are you suggesting I should indulge in some sort of censorship? I keep reminding you that censorship causes more social damage than does free speech. Why are you an oppressor of free speech?
A question for the obvious Conservative supporters on this Board:
Mr O’Toole says “But the centrepiece of the plan is a promise to create a million jobs. To accomplish that goal, the party is offering even more money than the Liberal government has budgeted for the country’s pandemic-struck employers — part of a push to recover all jobs lost over the last 18 months.”
How is this different from spending millions on wishes from the other parties and where will the million jobs come from? And will this promise be costed well enough to convince my good friend Merle Gingrich that these costs will not be passed to his grandchildren?
Maybe Merle’s grand-kids will get some of those millions of jobs and they will help pay our way out of this mess.
Somehow I doubt that the businesses who have been targeted for wage subsidies and loans will transfer all of the money to the workers. We have seen how many corporations ripped off the Nation by accepting CERB money and then using it for Dividend payouts and CAO bonusses? It will happen again if the Cons get in, after all the last thing they have on their minds is the welfare of a workforce!
Ben, where in the world do you get your information on CERB? I can guarantee you that not one corporation in Canada received even a nickle from the CERB program. You spew that misinformation around here as if it were fact. You are the type of person that personifies “fake news”.
What a ridiculous comment. You don’t even know hat CERB was for.
With the plethora of assistance programmes most of us have been referring to that assistance as CERB, or employer wage subsidies you people can slant the news anyway you want but in the big picture there were far more abuses of the system by business than workers. Tough to hear and if your Ox was gored by my remarks sobeit!
PS If anybody has the right to “fake news” on this board it would be you Frenchy (afraid to put your real name in case your neighbour knows what you write about?)
CERB was definitely not an employer wage subsidy. You are the only one I have ever heard try to lump all the relief programs under one name.
If you have any facts that there were “far more abuses of the system by business than workers”, trot them out.
You have lost any credibility that you might have had.
tell me your real name and I might give you some – credibility
Don’t need any from you, it would mean nothing (as in worthless).
Ben, my neighbours all call me Frenchy. It’s a nickname I’ve had for about 40 years. I wouldn’t be surprised if more people in Cobourg knew me as Frenchy than my given name.😊
Frenchy
If you are so well known why not use your real name? Can’t understand what you’re actually hidding from.
Who said I’m well known?
What I said was “I wouldn’t be surprised if more people in Cobourg knew me as Frenchy than [by] my given name.”
Aside from Trudeau’s visit, the good news this morning……and keep in mind that I do not really like Doug Ford and the way he has handled things….is that Ford has given two of his cabinet ministers until 5:00 pm. to get their first Covid shot or they will be FIRED!
This is the best news I have heard from the PC’s of late!
Good for Doug!
Better late than never, I guess??
Today Justin Trudeau revealed that he “doesn’t think about monetary policy”.
It’s hard to imagine any former Canadian prime minister or leader of any G7 nation exhibiting such an appalling lack of interest toward something so integral to the nations financial health.
Mrs Ananymous (or who ever you are?)
Please read my response to comments like yours (12 entries below) which I made to Merle Gingrich on August 17.
Our Prime Minister most likely said what you claim he said because the Economy is in the very capable hands of Chrystia Freeland, Minister of Finance and Deputy PM.
Saw your response:
“I’ll take Trudeau and Krista Freeland (sp?) any time. They are young, intelligent and in touch with the real world.”
All I can say is some people are so blinded by partisanship that they refuse to acknowledge the truth.
Pablo
If you are referring to the arguments and facts that I’ve put forward in support of our democratic system and open, honest and respectful debate, and instead of making meaningless statements like you’ve just made, respond intelligently to anything I’ve posted in this blog. I always accept the fact that I could be mistaken. I invite you to prove it!
Like most Liberals, I sincerely doubt that you could accept the fact that you could be mistaken. Therefore I decline your kind offer as it would only be a waste of my time.
Pablo
If you don’t want to “waste your time responding to my kind offer” or truly engage in a debate with myself or others, why are you on this valuable site except to clutter it up with nostrums. You call me a Liberal, Frenchy believes I must read the Toronto Star. What?
To be honest I don’t believe in labels. They have grown to be mesningless in this ever more complex world.
To be perfectly honest I am one who accepts the capitalist, free-market, economic system, tempered by Christian morality.
I am not religious, I am what some would call an agnostic. Christian morality describes how we should live with eachother and become a healthy, inclusive society. One of the first theologisns, Thomas Aquinus, writing in the 13th century, concluded that to love God is to respect and love all life. I go for all that, but, like Budism, I see it as philosophy, about how to live the good life … Not about religious belief
Imagine what our world and our future would be like if we actually did this?
What’s your reply?
My reply is that you must be nuts.
Reply to Pablo
I appreciate your sense of humour. You seem intelligent and we disagree. Let’s get together over a beer and talk. I’ve always been surprised at how much those who disagree actually have in common.
I’m not looking for a date.
This blog isn’t eHarmony.
There is video footage of Trudeau making the statement regarding not thinking about monetary policy. You can look it up.
Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland was a journalist and Slavic studies major. Not what I consider “capable hands” for running the economy, although it does seem to explain her penchant for central planning.
Mrs Anonymous
Before making the dismissive kind of comment you have made about Chrystia Freeland, do some research. It’s easy considering we have the web at our finger tips.
Chrystia Freeland is 53 (young but old enough to be experienced), with 3 children and a successful marriage.
She was educated at Harvard and Oxford and is a Rhodes Scholar. She has written two books and one, written in 2012, “Plutocrates: The Rise of the New Global Super Rich and the Fall of Everyone Else” won four prestigious awards and was an international best-seller.
As a journalist she has written for The Economist, the Financial Times and The Washington Post. She was Deputy Editor of the Globe and Mail from 1999-2001.
She has been a member of the Federal Parliament since 2013. She has been Minister of International Affairs, then Foreign Affairs and now Minister of Finance. She was appointed Deputy PM in 2019.
During the protracted NAFTA renegotiation she managed to get around the rath of Trump by developing a personal relationship with several of his closest advisors, one of whom came to her Ottawa home to have dinner with her family on one of his negotiating trips to our Capital.
We are lucky to have someone with this kind of background that has the time and energy and can handle the kind of abuse they are often subjected to, to remain in our Federal Government and work to make Canada an even better nation than it already is.
Go to the Government of Canada web-site for more. Some of the information on Wikipedia is incorrect or outdated.
Oh, and before I forget, she speaks five languages.
The way you describe her C.V., sounds like she should be running for Prime Minister rather than Mr. Trudeau. Maybe the Liberal Party missed its opportunity.
Peter M
There are mostly very good, well qualified people who serve as elected representatives in Canadian governments at all levels. Trying to satisfy everyone while being well informed and as a result sometimes making unpopular decisions is a thankless task, and of course that’s when the knives come out.
Many, like Freeland, could have a much higher income if they worked in the corporate world. Unlike those who make up the American Congress, where about 3/4 of them are millionaires to begin with, elected representatives in Canada are much more representative of the electorate they serve. I lived and worked in Washington for 8 years. We don’t know how fortunate we are.
I believe it says a lot about the PM that he appointed her as his Deputy.
Freeland posted a doctored video on social media to the extent that it has been flagged by the Twitter/CBC news checking as manipulated.
Trudeau shared it.
Blind partisanship (no matter what party) is a disservice to democracy.
Liberals are resorting to using American style political tactics. The is the link Mrs. Anonymous refers to – https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/twitter-adds-warning-label-to-tweet-from-liberal-candidate-chrystia-freeland/ar-AANC5oG?ocid=U506DHP&li=AAggFp5
Censorship causes more social damage than does free speech.
Mrs Anonymous (or who ever you really are.)
I tried to answer your inaccurate posting about Freeland’s formative experience which I supported by press reports of the respect she has engendered among top American NAFTA negotiators. Either accept that evidence or offer evidence to the contrary … not drift of into some other nonsense.
A Multinational corporation based in the United States of America will decide what Canadian politicians can or cannot say in our elections. Get used to it.
Twitter adds warning label to tweet from Liberal candidate Chrystia Freeland | CBC News
Keith, Ms. Freeland is an intelligent woman and may be adept at dinner entertainment but her education and work experience hardly qualify her for running our country’s finances.
She received a BA in Russian history and literature from Harvard and a Masters in Slavonic studies from Oxford. How does either degree relate to financial matters? Her entire working life was as a journalist rather than actually running a company or other relevant experience.
With a current salary of about $270,000 plus an outstanding pension, it is very unlikely that she could do better as a journalist.
Canada only has two official languages so why is speaking five relevant?
Ken
Can’t believe what you’ve just said. The US Chief NAFTA negotiator who she had for dinner was Robert Lighthizer, an individual known for being moody , irratic and having a short fuse and whose thinking on international trade was close to that of his boss, Trump. He came to dinner to celebrate the successful conclusion of the NAFTA negotiations.
This despite the fact Freeland had given him and his boss a hard time by working
closely with Mexico and several US States who depended on trade with Canada, to prevent the US from destroying the bi-lateral nature of the agreement as well as a clause that mandated disputes be resolved by an independent third party.
Most of her work as a journalist has been on economics. She has won numerous important awards; she is a Rhodes Scholar.
At a dinner in early 2018 (I think) where she was presented with Foreign Policy’s “Diplomat of the Year Award”, she delivered a widely published discourse on the importance of maintaining “a rules based international order”. Donald was not happy and tweeted so. His ill-informed, shoot-from-the-hip foreign initiatives were a threat to such an order.
Speaking other languages broadens one’s ability to better understand other cultures, the values that others embrace. It’s often the generalist who succeds, not the specialist. Canada is lucky to have her. Do more research. I’m sure you’ll change your mind.
Keith
Your points are irrelevant to whether Ms. Freeland is qualified to handle Canada’s finances:
She had Lighthizer as a dinner guest. Do you consider her cooking or dinnertime conversational ability relevant to Canada’s finances?
She was a Rhodes Scholar . Do you consider knowledge of Slavic studies (her Rhodes Scholar topic) relevant to Canada’s finances?
She received Foreign Policy’s “Diplomat of the Year Award”. Do you consider a magazine’s award for diplomacy relevant to Canada’s finances?
She speaks a number of languages. Which languages, other than English and French, are relevant to Canada’s finances?
Do more research. I’m sure you’ll change your mind.
Ken
One last comment on your opinion that Ms Freeland is unqualified to make policy in support of Canada’s Economy.
First and foremost, like any good committee chair she manages the debate that takes place among the 800+ civil servants in her Ministry, many of whom are highly qualified experts with many years experience in government.
Her Goals, like those of any Minister, are set by the mandate given her by the PM. The resulting policies that she recommends to Cabinet are reviewed there, accepted, revised to fit with other government initiatives, or, in extreme cases, refused.
She has proven herself to be adept at interpersonal relationships, successful at political relationships, respected internationally and in an earlier professional life, well versed in matters related to economics.
Is she an expert? … I doubt it! Is she intelligent? a good listener? able to find best-for-all compromise? All the evidence indicates she is! Again Canada is lucky to have well gualified individuals like her influencing the future of our country.
I admire their dedication in the face of all the abuse they are subjected to by those who simply don’t know what they are talking about.
That’s all from me on this blog.
Keith, do you read any newspaper other than the Toronto Star?
I wonder if Keith read this???? – https://thepostmillennial.com/trudeau-likely-violated-ontario-gathering-rules-at-campaign-stop
She-cession…..She-covery…Trudeau’s new talk…What is this guy all about? This boy is up in the clouds somewhere.
Maybe that’s because his “she” is now separated from him.
Those are just she nanigans.
A well articulated read, scroll down. Composed by a Cobourg teenager. Have A Little Respect – Nose In a Book (wordpress.com)
Wally
Thanks for that incredible reference. An amazing comment by one who is not old enough to vote. Perhaps, and despite all the mayhem produced by the free speech lovers at the Monday night rally, there is hope for the future.
Apparently there were “fine people on both sides” Keith – I must credit Trump for that quote.
I did appreciate the read – the naivety of youth is very endearing. She has researched candidates and platforms, these are important attributes most voting aged Canadians fail to do.
Its a shame she won’t be able to afford to buy a home … I hope at 30 years old she reflects back on her support for sunny days with as much joy and optimism from her parents basement.
I would say it is the prescient power of today’s youth. We can only hope there will be more people tomorrow like the young writer.The current generation with members with all the decision making power (and attention grabbing techniques that aim to instill fear) today will be the old people of tomorrow who, if the treatment of many seniors these days is any indication, society does not care to see or hear. Mind how we treat and educate youth today because they will be the ones making decisions about our quality of life when we get old.
The Global News’ Ottawa Bureau Chief and host of the network’s flagship national political affairs program, The West Block, Ms Mercedes Stephenson, tweeted;
“Large, crowded event in Cobourg. Some in the crowd getting nasty. A man upset with mask rules and the state of the economy says he immigrated to Canada for freedom, he decries Trudeau’s leadership. Liberal supporters across the street yell “go back to Afghanistan” and “leave then”.
Mr. Tucker, two points,Mt.O:Tool is recommending not mandating everyone should get vaccinated, secondly, I too am a senior,but who will cover the Liberal Dept/ deficits? Our grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
If you read my comment again, I said “for some people”. In my opinion, if the Conservatives had been in power when the pandemic hit, it would not have turned out any better. I’ll stick with Trudeau . On an “even keel” and looks the part of a caring individual who is not out for just themselves but for the country.
You know he is a drama teacher-he plays the part of a caring individual on TV, But this is real life. He is in it for himself and his friends. Remember the WE charity scandal, His Christmas vacation with the Aga Khan-ethics breach.
Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion found he violated the Conflict of Interest Act by trying to influence then-justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould and get her to overrule a decision to not grant a deferred prosecution agreement to Quebec-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin- ethics breach number 2.
And I could go on and on. He’s in it for friends and businesses that support him..
We are nothing more than an audience for his show.
A show who’s time needs to come an end
Isn’t everyone, “in it for themselves”.
So you agree that Justin Trudeau is “in it for himself”?
“The budget will balance itself.”
-Justin Trudeau
Pablo:
And pigs will fly
To Merle Gingrich
Just before the pandemic and after 4.5 years of Trudeau/Liberal government, Canada’s debt to GDP ratio at approx 33 percent was one of the lowest in the industrial world. Italy and France are over 100 percent. Popular Canadian Federal Government 10 year Bonds yield less than1percent interest.
As the economy recovers, GDP growth resumes, inflation resets at 2-3 percent, and population increase is restored, the true cost of the present borrowing will decrease to almost nothing.
This is a common business practice.
In addition most of the money distributed during the pandemic was quickly spent, stimulated the ecomony which was in danger of a near collapse, and in many cases the distributed funds are subject to income tax.
Remember Harper and how the Conservatives dragged their feet before they started to spend to help get us out of the 2008 financial crisis? I’ll take Trudeau and Krista Freeland (sp?) any time. They are young, intelligent and in touch with the real world.
As to the anti-vaccine loud mouths, it’s important to understand that in a complex and diverse society, such as Canada, there is no such thing as absolute freedom!
No Jobs bring in More Immigrants and $10. per day child care
Make s Sense to some I suppose
Who wants to baby sit my kids for $10 a day ????
Whats Minimum wage here now verses the Living wage ?
Remember the last time that Trudeau visited Cobourg in support of Kim Rudd, that didn’t work for Rudd. Beware Alison as history repeats.
I certainly will vote Liberal, I think Trudeau did a fantastic job with the pandemic and even though I’m a senior and most of us feel we were left out of the “benefits” offered to those who are not, I am very satisfied with the current Gov’t. I called Kim Rudd’s office numerous times, trying to get assistance for my mother with dementia, but never received a call in return, maybe it’s not the “party” but the person. Give Alison a chance. The Conservative leader does not believe in masks or vaccines for some people, how will we ever get out of this mess, if we listen to all the “anti-vaxers” , protesters, we never will.
A fantastic job?
Late getting vaccines in Canada.
Bungled and late rollout.
Shipping PPE needed in Canada to China.
Not closing airports to foreign travellers.
Mix & match vaccines against WHO and manufacturer recommendations.
Millions of doses wasted or expired because of mixed messaging and incompetence.
Passing the buck to Provinces on difficult awkward issues.
Using the pandemic to avoid parliament and accountability.
Calling an unnecessary election during a pandemic.
Yes. Trudeau has certainly done a fantastic job with the pandemic.
At least we had a sane person looking after our best interests, not like the United States, who are still in turmoil, with half the country still believing in what the “pro Trump” extremists are peddling.
Who sold the only plant able to make vaccines here in Canada??? I believe it was the Conservative government of Brian Mulroney. in the 80’s.
Who bought it Karl Schreiber ?
More “whataboutism”.
Yep, in the 80s. That’s about 40 years ago. There have been other epidemics since, and no government of any stripe did anything about it.
Living in the past doesn’t solve the problems of today.
This is false. The lab is still open and still making vaccines. Most of Canada’s flu shots are made there.
Tucker?
Tucker?
Crickets.
Hi Pablo…you didn’t even mention the Trudeau scandals. If his name wasn’t “Trudeau” , he would be lucky to even have a job in today’s competitive job market.
Agreed. But the Trudeau sycophants are blinded by fancy socks and nice hair.
To Cornbread (who ever you are!)
We live in one of the best countries in the world. A pluralistic, liberal democracy, based on the English Westminster model
with a Constitutional Hereditary Monarch as Head of State.
Out of that and within a four year period, Canadians elect a Federal Government. The Party with the most seats choses and can remove it’s leader, who becomes the Prime Minister.
I have run for municipal Counci in three different localities. It takes committment, hard work and a willingness to accept failure not to mention the abuse people like you dish out.
Disagree with Trudeau if you will, but do so with respect for his committment and what his office represents. Those who tried to shout him down last Monday in Cobourg, lost their case by doing so and are now regarded as a bunch of hot heads.
And by the way, the Jody Wilson-Rybold “scandal” over a 10 year old “crime” committed by SNC Lavilan, was finally settled with a deferred prosecution agreement which was what Trudeau’s office was urging then Minister of Justice Wilson-Rybold to consider as an alternative to a direct prosecution.
The real problem, not of Trudeau’s making, was that she was both Minister of Justice, which is a political appointment subject to political influence, as well as Attourney General which is independent of politics.
And by the way, what is your real name? … not the false one you hide behind? Mine is Keith Oliver. Call me at 905-377-0107 so we can get together over a beer and have a chat!
Keith, as I best recall the SNC situation was not the only scandal. What about the Aga Khan vacation, alleged groping of a reporter, Indian costume fiasco, WE charity, a blackface dramatic event and…? Did you forget?
Dubious (or whoever you are!)
Your comments belie the fact you know very little about the real facts behind any of the incidents you drag up and that you and others on this blog have fallen for the sensational and twisted reporting by such political hacks as Ottawa Globe and Mail Bureau Chief Robert Fife who love any thing they can turn into a so-called “scandal” even when it has the potential to undermine people’s trust in government.
The whole Jody Wilson-Raybould affair should have been resolved in Cabinet, not in the Press, but Ms Raybould couldn’t resist and Fife was more than happy to oblige. The result was we lost a strong voice for First Nations Canadians, an effective Minister in Carol Bennet and a valued advisor to Trudeau. The SNC-Lavilan affair was finally settled through a deferred prosecution agreement.
Tell me what the PM had to gain in his involvement with WE? Don’t bother, the answer is nothing and Canada lost a great organization that sought to involve dissolutioned youth. The Keilbergers ran WE like a business with a strong hand. As such why do we not find the same fault with a successful business? On top of that the media couldn’t contain itself dispite the fact the PM was following the advice of a department of the Federal bureaucracy. Finally the Code of Ethics does not recognize extended family member such as his mother and brother. But never mind, the talking heads have a deadline to meet and a name to make for themselves! Who knows, they might become Ottawa Bureau Chief one day!
Black face? You’re kidding right? He was a teacher joining in with his students in some kind of Arabian Nights celebration. The dressed up young students he was pictured with, did they get vilified? Next thing you know you and yours will be condeming Monty Python for demeaning lumber jacks.
And by the way are you perfect? If so why don’t you use your real name? That rock must be uncomfortable to hide under!
Keith, in my humble opinion WE was a destructive organization that conscripted kids with very little knowledge of the world. Rather like the child labour that most caring people rightly reject. What did he gain? Perhaps little personal gain but his mother and finance minister gained quite a lot.
I’m surprised that you glibly accept blackface. How do you reconcile that with a society which insists that references to “Gypsy moths” and “Japanese beetles” are unacceptable? Demeaning lumberjacks is fine unless they are French Canadian lumberjacks.
The alleged groping incident seems rather worse than the alleged exposing himself that has resulted in criminal charges 30 years later for Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin.
No, I’m not perfect, On the other hand I’ve never supported a criminal charity, vacationed with the Aga Khan, acted in blackface or groped a reporter. My rock is cooling on a hot day.
…and that’s what we know about. Im sure there’s more.We lack choice though and thats a problem.
NEVER GOT A CALL BACK — Very few did
There’s YOUR Sign |
I understand she did next to no constituancy work.
That was his Body Double
In the past couple weeks, the PM has crossed the country promising major financial commitments by the federal gov’t: Day care for BC $1.3B & PQ $6B respectively; $5.2B for Nfld’s Muscrat Falls power development; over a Billion for Calgary’s transportation infrastructure and the Surrey Skytrain etc…..In addition, the spring Budget had over $17.6B for climate initiatives…
I did not attend the event last night. What did he promise our town? ……
Sunny ways, my friend.
Sunny ways.
Well Dunkirk, if you’re a senior he gave you $500 taxable of your own money same day as he called the unwanted election. Could this be called buying votes? Nah ….
Not all seniors, only those born on or before June 30,1947. That cuts out a lot of us.
And I assume subject to normal OAS clawback.
bribes will get us nowhere – but more liberal debts
As a grandparent and generally a long time Liberal supporter, I can only
support candidates who support proactive climate change initiatives. Sadly, the current Liberal Party (and Conservatives) want good paying oil patch jobs
now, and don’t care about my grandchildrens future. Time to get these fossil fuelers out of office now and forever. Unfortunately Alison Lester wont be getting my vote.
December 8, 2020
“China is building 184 coal plants – Guess what that will do to carbon emissions.”
https://www.canadianenergycentre.ca/
March 24, 2021
“Despite Pledges to Cut Emissions, China Goes on a Coal Spree”
https://e360.yale.edu/features/despite-pledges-to-cut
Anyone who wants to address the global warming issue should start with China (and others). There is no reason why Canada alone should take on the burden of bringing atmospheric CO2 back into balance.
Without fossil fuels everyone starves to death. Think about that the next time you bash the west.
you re so correct – but ignorance is bliss
Re: “...It’s not apparent how being rude and shouting down a speech helps the cause of the anti-mask and anti-vax’ers. But we do have free speech in Canada – I guess that includes free noise…”:
Now I understand better the comment by a reader in a recent posting here about “all the “wackos” showing up creating problems for security…”.
So true and that women needs to consider how many children have died with Covid-19.
In Ontario-2 deaths in total- from Jan 15 2020 to 30 Jun 2021 of children under 18 Yrs (2– 14 yr olds). This Out of a total of 70,187 reported cases in children under 18 yrs during that period
Only 401children under 18 yrs hospitalized in Ontario from 15 Jan 2020 to 30 Jun 20219
https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/2020/05/covid-19-epi-infection-children.pdf?la=en
Marya in her comment makes it sound like children die daily from COVID. The stats show that is clearly not the case.
And 15 deaths of persons under 19 yrs in all of Canada. Since Health Canada started recording COVID 19 data to 13 Aug 2021
It was the protester on Tuesday Evening that was sounding off about the deaths of children in her repetitive reference to Trudeau as a “murderer.”
Pete M
How would you feel about the significance of statistics if one or both of those two children were yours?
A death of a child is unfortunate in any circumstance. And trust me I hope there no other children die from COViD.
But disease and death are a reality of life no matter what age. Society tries to do its best to mitigate and prevent deaths. But death still happens.
I feel that past generations who experienced death from small pox, tuberculosis and other diseases across more age groups were more resilient in dealing with the death.
And trust me, I can tell you I have seen more death- children,adults-from natural causes to Motor collisions to suicide and been to more autoposies than i wanted to be.
Why is it that they are only “wackos” when they oppose our current prime minister and his party? Why is it that equally loud unruly “rude” mobs who who show up at conservative or PPC events are just called protestors? I wonder if the same term “wacko” would be used by JimT to describe those “woke” mobs who have been tearing down statues of late? Or are they only “protesters”because he agrees with their “cause”?
And yes, we do have free speech in this country. That is unless Trudeau is re-elected with a majority and rams through bill c-10.
These anti-vaccine wackjobs are an embarrassment to the Town of Cobourg.
Call them wackos, anti vaxxers, anti lock down. They are people who are frustrated with the current rules and have had enough.
Early 2020 we were told to wear mask–we did and virus marched on.
We were put in lockdowns and only allowed to interact thru the internet—the virus marched on.
We were told vaccines were the magic injection and would fix all–the virus is still here.
So lets take a look at Ontario s numbers from yesterday-17 Aug 2021
The vast majority of those new cases and those in the hospital are the unvaccinated.
And now we are told that our children will be subjected to virtual learning for another school.
People have done what has been asked of them. They are frustrated and had enough. They want their freedoms back
Those who are unvaccinated know the risk. If the chose not to vaccinate so be it.
Those who are double vaccinated should have confidence in the vaccine and move on with life.
If I go to a restaurant, I’m not interested in whether the other patrons are vaccinated or not. I have faith in the vaccines.
If we can’t have confidence in the vaccines, they why get vaccinated?
I will speak for myself, Pablo. Please don’t try to do it for me.