Beach to be Closed on Weekends and Holidays

At a special Emergency meeting tonight, Council voted six to one to allow Victoria beach to be open only on weekdays but with capacity limited to 1200. This is effective May 31.  Councillors Burchat and Beatty would have preferred it to be open all days and Councillor Darling wanted an opening delayed until June 14.  Councillor Chorley explained that the public survey indicated a partial opening was preferred and Health advice is to avoid crowds which are more likely on weekends.  The decision taken was essentially the second of three options proposed by staff.  Option one was to keep the Beach closed and Option three was to open it with no restrictions.  The Staff report (see links below) included the option to provide a beach camera as is currently done in Wasaga Beach but Council did not think it necessary.

Other Issues

  • Enforcement of capacity will be managed by counting the number of people entering and leaving.  In general, people would not be allowed to re-enter after leaving so Porta Potties would be required inside the fence. 
  • If there is a problem with capacity, Police or By-Law officers can close the beach.
  • By-Law officers would patrol as usual to ensure normal by-law compliance and educate people on spacing requirements.
  • There will be no Lifeguards – notices will be posted saying “swim at your own risk”.
  • Staff recommended that there be no distinction between local residents and non-residents.  To do so would be against human rights rules and asking for an ID with address would be a problem.  There is more detail about this in the staff report.
  • The staff report was put together with input from the ECG, the District Health Unit, the Emergency Planner and the Police.
  • Funding for unusual Covid-19 related items has been provided by the Province so there is no cost for these measures to the Cobourg Municipal taxpayer.
  • An agenda item will be added to COW Council meetings so regular updates will be provided.  If needed, beach closure measures can be modified.

The photo below shows what the closure looked like last summer.

Final Motion passed

Cobourg Beach - 1 Aug 2020
Cobourg Beach – 1 Aug 2020

Moved by Councillor Chorley, Seconded by Councillor Beatty:

THAT Council direct staff to open Victoria Beach on weekdays and close the beach on weekends and public holidays (July 1, August 2, and September 6, 2021) starting May 31, 2021 and in effect until Friday September 10, 2021; and

FURTHER THAT staff install metal fencing and barriers with emergency access points and utilize beach signage, and a communication plan, to ensure users understand the Provincial Orders and Physical Distancing and other requirements as set out by Federal, Provincial and Public Health authorities; and

FURTHER THAT a maximum beach occupancy load of 1,200 people be established to facilitate physical distancing, and that authority be delegated to Town of Cobourg By-law Enforcement and Cobourg police Service to temporarily dose the beach if overcrowding occurs; and

FURTHER THAT the costs outlined in the Staff Report for Option 2 be covered by the COVID-19 Resiliency Funding as follows: Fencing – $16,100, Signage – $2,500, and Opening fence and closing each week, $300.00

The  upcoming recommendations by the Parks and Recreation Advisory committee on handling crowds at the Beach were not mentioned nor discussed.  The West Beach and the West Harbour were also not mentioned nor discussed.

Links

Addendum – 28 May

Here is what Prince Edward County is doing about “Over-Tourism”

CTV News Item

Print Article: 

 

116 Comments
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Wally Keeler
1 June 2021 12:24 pm

“Assuming you can recall through the haze of shock therapy. Or is all that just another story your parents told you which may not be accurate?”

You really can’t stop yourself from making mean-spirited personal ad hominin attacks. What does that have to do with the issue at hand other than to express your personal maliciousness?

Your assertion that I suffer “through a haze of shock therapy” is an outright lie with no purpose other than to malign me.

And what do my parents have to do with an ugly fence that you want to wrap around the beach? Make your points without the personal malicious comments about my family if you are capable of doing that.

Last edited 11 days ago by Wally Keeler
MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
1 June 2021 3:19 pm

The topic at hand Wally was the possibility of charging a user fee to nonresidents for use of the beach. You are now assuming that the Town will erect an ugly fence, by your definition, and said fence also limits your personal freedom. That, of course is in the same fashion as having to show your ID limits your freedom. You have now established yourself as Cobourg’s final arbiter of esthetics, architecture and constitutional law. Let us allow Council to mull the possibilities and if they see merit, assign real, qualified experts on design and system implementation to imagine the fence and the corresponding fee collection system. BTW, the correct spelling is ad hominem

Old Sailor
30 May 2021 9:02 am

The issue which 55 King St. West can’t solve is that we do not have public parking lots for 1,200 plus beachgoers – unless we let them fill daily all the residential streets south of University Ave. and fill all of the available parking lots downtown. In my view that is not providing a net benefit to Cobourg residents. Especially those who want to shop downtown or park in front of their own home.To me charging a very significant beach usage fee for non residents is the only practical solution. Keep increasing the price until the daily beach users’ numbers do not disrupt Cobourg residents.

MCGA
Reply to  Old Sailor
30 May 2021 9:41 am

Agreed, Old Sailor. If you read some of the commentary on Prince Edward County and Wellington, small dollar parking and $30 parking violation fines did not put a dent in their problems last year. So they cranked the numbers for this season. We should find some balance and, at least, provide Town locals with ready access and also cover our operating costs. Many good ideas from Wellington, Ajax and Innisfil.

Concerned
29 May 2021 1:27 pm

So there are some very interesting ideas, the only problem I see is this council won’t spend the money required to implement most. They were afraid to spend a few bucks on cameras on the beach and oh don’t even get me started on the fact that they won’t fully staff the Economic Development department or Planning Departments or many other positions they have left vacant in this years budget to save a few bucks. No wonder certain departments in the town can’t get things done. How do you function in a department without someone to steer the ship?

MCGA
Reply to  Concerned
29 May 2021 2:41 pm

A reasonable concern. That said, we know there is demand for the very limited quality beaches in Southern Ontario. If we could ask just the same price as Wellington, $10 per person, from nonresident beach goers (estimate 800), then I suspect that we could average something like $8K a day for every Saturday and Sunday from mid-June to end of August…and average something about half of that amount for the weekdays over the same two and one half months. I have to believe that would not only cover all cost (start up and ongoing) but produce a tidy profit by end of season. WIN, WIN, WIN.
Plus, we could get generous Wally out there to subsidize those out-of-towners who can afford the gas to get here but can’t afford the entry fee.

Concerned
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 3:17 pm

What about the hundreds of thousands it would cost to build and maintain a permanent fence then the cost to permanently staff? I bet these would be unionized positions thus costing even more. This would scare off council as they appear to be very cost averse and are afraid to increase the cost of any fees. I bet if you asked town staff they have probably tried to increase parking fees in the past with no luck.

Bryan
Reply to  Concerned
29 May 2021 4:09 pm

Concerned:
I doubt that staff have tried to increase parking fees recently (years?). Just like the transit fees that haven’t been increased in 20 years in spite of a consultants recommendation in 2013 to increase them.

Increasing the paid parking area (lake to University, Ontario to Abbott) and fees (with local free passes) is the easiest and least disruptive way to raise funds to pay for beach operations. Even if the parking fees were $4-$5 per hr (max $30?) on the weekends/holidays, the non-local beach goers will still come, although likely in reduced numbers.

This requires no fences, gates, guards, or ID checks. The cost of marking the additional parking spaces and the parking ticket machines would be recovered from the additional revenue.

Concerned
Reply to  Bryan
29 May 2021 4:28 pm

Unfortunately we’ll never know if staff have tried. Because they can’t speak out. It’s only the easiest if the council would support.

Bryan
Reply to  Concerned
29 May 2021 11:21 pm

Concerned,

It’s reasonably easy to determine if the Town (staff, council, both) tried to make changes. Look at the current situation and consider if anything has changed and in what time frame. Talk to the elders:.the ones who have lived/worked in the area. Ask what were things like 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago.
Ask if there was any attempt to make changes. If yes, check the Council meeting minutes for the time frames indicated. Also check the media; print and online. You never know what you might find.

That’s how I found the 2013 transit fee study and that transit fees have not been increased in 20 years.

Bill Thompson
Reply to  Bryan
30 May 2021 12:57 pm

How many years have there been two school buses going to Northumberland Mall back and forth to pick up “tourists”? . I’ve never seen anyone on them as they go by my house.
Nobody carrying all their coolers,tents,umbrellas etc. can use them ,while the streets surrounding Victoria Park, Donegan car Park (free) are completely filled with cars.
Since Covid -19 that hasn’t been the case so I wonder what the cost has been and will that free useless bus service return once it’s over ?

Deborah OConnor
Reply to  Bill Thompson
30 May 2021 2:44 pm

Plenty of citizens use our bus service to get to and from their jobs, to school and medical and other appointments. With a reasonable tip it would cost about $25 by taxi for me to get to and from central Cobourg to the Mall; hell I can’t afford that very often. The bus service was a blessing when it started in the late 70s/80s and it’s a blessing now. Leave it alone for everybody’s sake.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Deborah OConnor
30 May 2021 4:36 pm

Deborah, do you realize that your $25 estimate for a two-way cab ride is almost exactly what the bus actually costs the town’s taxpayers for the same trip?

Last edited 12 days ago by Ken Strauss
Bill Thompson
Reply to  Deborah OConnor
30 May 2021 5:57 pm

I was not referring to bus service in general.
That speaks for itself.
I thought I made it very clear that I was referring to /from the beach from NH mall for “tourists”.
Unless I’m mistaken bus route NH mall to Victoria Park/beach Church Street is not a daily run as I never see a school bus unless it actually is on its daily school run.along Queen Street to the schools on King St. E

Last edited 12 days ago by Bill Thompson
Conor
Reply to  Bryan
30 May 2021 4:11 pm

At $30.dollars an hour they will never come. You have an over inflated view of what Cobourg is all about.

Bryan
Reply to  Conor
30 May 2021 5:04 pm

Conor,
There is one thing to be said about you Conor, you are consistent. Somehow, as you often seem to do, you muddled things up.
You wrote “…At $30.dollars an hour...”
I wrote “…parking fees were $4-$5 per hr (max $30?)…”

Do you notice the small, but important difference. The $30 is the max fee per DAY.

At least your “jumps to confusion” are mildly entertaining

MCGA
Reply to  Concerned
29 May 2021 9:52 pm

Perhaps we should not be running before crawling. Let us prove profitability and effectiveness before jumping to larger capital expenditures like permanent walls or operational jumps like new permanent staff. In my very early consulting days we use to wager on what businesses would fail because the owners were so in love with an idea that they threw enormous capital at it assuming that equaled success. The market did not always agree.

ben burd
Reply to  MCGA
30 May 2021 7:47 am

Aha now we know why you think you know everything – you were once a consultant!

MCGA
Reply to  ben burd
30 May 2021 9:29 am

I have worn many hats in my career, including mgt. consulting and military intelligence (and yes it is an oxymoron) but I only rarely believe I know everything. That said, in my travels (living in three countries and working/exploring in some 44 others) I have observed how things seem to work or don’t. Learning from others’ successes and failures carries a pretty cheap tuition.

Concerned
Reply to  MCGA
1 June 2021 10:34 am

RMC

Informed
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 4:28 pm

I think a good compromise would be to make it free to all Northumberland County residents. I believe there is better odds they will drop in downtown,to restaurants etc because of a short commute home

JimT
Reply to  Informed
29 May 2021 5:47 pm

I disagree. Beachies won’t want to get out of their swimwear and Speedos to dress up in street clothes for dinner uptown on King St. or wherever.
Beachies come here for sun, sand and water and a bite of sustenance from a kiosk or a counter nearby and that’s it.
The two modes seem quite incompatible to me.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
31 May 2021 10:09 am

we could get generous Wally out there to subsidize those out-of-towners who can afford the gas to get here but can’t afford the entry fee.”

What a fabrication! Those “out-of;towners” can afford an entry fee. What proof do you have to say they can’t afford an entry fee? They can afford an entry fee elsewhere, so what makes you think they can’t afford an entry fee to Cobourg? What a stupid idea.

As I always touted, I was first here to suggest that Cobourg charge non-residents a premium rate for parking. Not you, nor anyone else. Me. If you believe that this is a good policy, then step up to the plate and present it to Town Council.

Last edited 12 days ago by Wally Keeler
MCGA
28 May 2021 11:10 am

Open letter to our Town Council on the beach opening and use:
The decisions made by Wellington, Innisfil and Ajax should serve as supporting precedents for the Town of Cobourg to both: provide Cobourg residents with preferred and specifically designated access to our beach; as well as charging access fees to nonresidents for beach use. Cobourg has the same right to discourage out-of-towners from monopolizing a Town resource as these other municipalities. It also has the same obligation to reduce the chance of virus spread and to reduce the carrying costs to the Cobourg taxpayers.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
28 May 2021 4:54 pm

Open letter to Cobourg Town Council on the beach opening and use.
The proposals made by MCGA are silly and the people of Cobourg won’t stand for being harassed daily with having to show proof of residency just to access their beach. MCGA has no detailed plans or ideas how to implement his proposal. MCGA certainly has zero ideas about making money from the beachniks. MCGA is just another loudmouth moaner who hasn’t the gonads to take their proposal to Town Council. All they can do is pretend that their posting in a blog will be regarded as an open letter to Town Council. LOL.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
28 May 2021 6:12 pm

All anyone has to do to understand how to accomplish these most rudimentary steps is contact other municipal facilities, on both sides of the border, and ask the question. The most common approach: For local residence, once a season go to Town Hall, present your tax bill and receive your season pass. Every time your family wishes to go to the beach, show said pass and enter. That is how hard it is and that is the way it has been done in many beachfront jurisdictions since at least 1960.
If you do not have a pass then you pay a daily entrance fee (in the old days cash) via a wifi enable swipe card machine.
The attendants control, via count, the numbers on the beach. Ezee Pezee. With slightly more sophistication you could develop a booking program, as Wellington has, that differentiates locals from non. It even registers car license plates so locals don’t have to pay for parking. The wonders of modern science.
Alternatively you can listen to the Town contraindicator who believes you will feel oppressed by having to show a pass to get on the beach.
Just like you refuse to buy liquor or wine at the LCBO if they dare to ask for proof of age. He should go back to writing more of his superb poetry…all beginning with “There was a man from Nantucket.”

Concerned
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 1:48 pm

One thing you forget with all your ideas is the cost. This council and town has shown if an idea has a cost associated to it that it is a non-starter. Some of your ideas are valid but won’t generate the necessary revenue to cover the costs.

JimT
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 5:55 pm

I don’t disagree entirely, but, as someone who pays paltry rent every month to a terrific landlord for a luxurious ground-floor flat with a huge back yard, I have to ask: what’s a “tax bill”?

Bryan
Reply to  JimT
29 May 2021 6:09 pm

JimT,
You’re kidding, right. Your rent may be paltry, but your landlord pays big taxes which your rent (paltry though it may be) helps fund.
So you do have some skin in the game.

Last edited 13 days ago by Bryan
Deborah OConnor
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 7:12 pm

OK then what about renters? How do they prove their residency?

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Deborah OConnor
29 May 2021 7:25 pm

Perhaps with their driver’s license? Perhaps they get an annual beach pass from Victoria Hall?

JimT
Reply to  Deborah OConnor
30 May 2021 5:05 am

Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
31 May 2021 10:36 am

“For local residence, once a season go to Town Hall, present your tax bill and receive your season pass. Every time your family wishes to go to the beach, show said pass and enter. That is how hard it is and that is the way it has been done in many beachfront jurisdictions since at least 1960.”

For well over 100 years, the people of Cobourg simply walked freely without hassle onto the beach for their enjoyment. What if a resident doesn’t get a municipal tax bill, renters. What loops and hurdles will they have to jump through and over to get that magic pass from those who govern us? I’ve enjoyed that beach for 74 years; that on the spur of a moment I can walk to it freely. Then there is the tightwad that coerces me to line up for a pass to my own park, and that I have to display to “an authority” on every single visit or else. Without proof of residency, I will be denied access to the beach regardless of my contribution to the tax base of this Town. I will be forcefully denied entry. Some prefer coercive action, compared to creative action to extract $$$$$$$ from beachniks. I prefer creativity rather than coercion as McGa suggests.

Last edited 12 days ago by Wally Keeler
Leweez
Reply to  Wally Keeler
28 May 2021 6:35 pm

Ok , once again Wally resorting to name calling, Mr. Draper pull the plug on him

JimT
Reply to  Leweez
29 May 2021 6:03 pm

“I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
Attributed to Voltaire [1694-1778]
 

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
28 May 2021 7:27 pm

Sometimes one only has to look in the mirror. Looks like MCGA knows alot more than you expected.Serve yourself a slice of crow pie.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Informed
31 May 2021 10:57 am

McGa’s scheme is to fence the beach, then charge an entry fee. First of all, McGa hasnlt a clue about what kind of fence will be needed. And for what purpose? For the 9 days a year out of 365 when beachniks become a crowd. How much money should be spent on that fence? Will Cobourg residents go for a fence around their beach? Not likely.

Will it be a temporary fence for July and August only. Cobourg residents regard the current temporary fence as grossly ugly, so any idea to make a fancy and beautiful fence, in keeping with the beauty and dignity of Victoria Park, will cost a plenty penny. These are the things that McGa hasn’t worked out.

if you and he both believe so highly of your project to charge for access to the beach, then present it to Town Council. Put your policy to the real test, step up to the plate, and make your lead balloon pitch. I’ve appeared before Cpuncil several times in the past 10 years and I get what I want sometimes and sometimes not. So if Informed and McGa got the parts, present it in the only forum that matters — Town Council.

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
31 May 2021 6:44 pm

I think MCGA has provided enough ammunition to get the ball rolling. Once a decision is made to charge an entry fee for the beach,Im sure all questions can be addressed. Even your silly ones. Council has all the information needed to decide to charge a user fee for the beach. There is no need for Facebook polls,consultants or ballon pitches.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Informed
1 June 2021 7:26 am

But there is a need for someone to approach Town Council with this idea and no one ever has. If you believe MCGA has provided enough ammunition to get the ball going, then ask MCGA to step up to Town Council and present this idea. That is where the rubber meets the road. Join with him as a supporter. Sign a petition. Of course that has never been done either. All there is, is a small cluster of hot air on a blog. If you believe Cobourg residents support this idea, then get it documented in a petition. Get off your butts and petition and lobby Town Council. I’ve done that several times in Cobourg. I’ve presented my ideas to Town Council and sometimes I have been successful and sometimes not. The point is that I had the spine to present my concerns to those who can act on them, and my presentation was sufficiently articulated that it convinced them.

That is what MCGA and you and the other pseudonym supporters should do. Put up or shut up.

Last edited 11 days ago by Wally Keeler
MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
1 June 2021 9:10 am

If the idea was so complex, if the system to accomplish it was so requiring, if the Council and Town staff were so limited in their ability to grab ideas, solve problems and implement basic change, I would take such a step as necessary. But charging a pay-to-play fee is so rudimentary and has been accomplished at so many other venues, over such a long period of time, that I firmly believe the Town can easily accomplish it. The largest encumbrance seems to be the misperception that it is purely an anti-outsider gambit. I argue fairness and believe it to be a WIN, WIN, WIN scenario. Additionally, in my consulting days I had a line when a prospective client moaned about the cost: A free consult is likely worth what you pay for it.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
1 June 2021 10:27 am

If such an idea is so rudimentary, then it should be easy to make a well-articulated argument in favour of such a rudimentary idea. I don’t think the members of Town Council are “limited in their ability to grasp ideas.” But even if so, you can articulate your idea to them, but you choose not to do so. I have had the courage to make presentations to Town Council and convinced them of my ideas on occasion. I had the confident ability to articulate my concerns. It’s very easy to delegate yourself to present ideas to Council.

It is obvious that you do not believe it to be a WIN WIN WIN scenario or you would articulate this to those who are the only ones who can act on your so-called WIN WIN WIN idea. So what is your excuse for not stepping up to the plate and presenting to Council?

The largest encumbrance is the FENCE FENCE FENCE that is required for your WIN WIN WIN scenario, not the “misperception that it is purely an anti-outsider gambit. Do you think you are unable to argue effectively against that so-called misperception?

No one has ever approached Town Council about this, so that means that the WIN WIN WIN scenario that you so love will not happen. Cobourg residents have never signed a petition over the issue. Get off your butt and ACT on your WIN WIN WIN idea. Otherwise you couldnl’t care less whether Cobourg recoups its costs from non-residents.

WIN WIN WIN followed by EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES not to act. Without stepping up to the plate your WIN WIN WIN will become LOOSE LOOSE LOOSE, all that money going into the coffers of the Town, NOT.

concerned
Reply to  Informed
7 June 2021 7:53 pm

So if it’s such a great idea go to council and make a delegation. Everyone talks great ideas on here but they aren’t willing to go to council with them.

Deborah OConnor
Reply to  Wally Keeler
29 May 2021 7:08 pm

Thank you Wally for injecting some sense into this rather nasty xenophobic diatribe from the least among us.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Deborah OConnor
31 May 2021 10:57 am

Freedom is a great cause.

MCGA
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 9:24 am

Just to quantify the financial benefit to the Town: Wellington is now charging $10 per person for nonresidents to use the municipal beach. If Cobourg charged the same amount (and I would argue our beach is better and worth a higher price) than even with a Covid limit of 1,200 beach users per day (and reducing that by some percentage being locals) you quickly recover any related system and control costs and then contribute to regular cleaning and maintenance. We get to use our beach…we get to restrict viral exposure…we get to mitigate the costs…WIN, WIN, WIN.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
31 May 2021 10:58 am

Present your briliant one-of-kind ideas to Town Council.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
1 June 2021 7:08 am

This is all well and good, however not a single individual has ever approached Town Council about charging fees for access to the beach. Absolutely no one has the intelligence nor spine to approach Town Council with this ‘great’ idea? Perhaps those who espouse this idea don’t have the parts to present this idea to Town Council. One can only speculate as to why no one has ever presented this ‘great’ idea to Town Council. Make non-residents pay a fee to access the beach. Well first of all, a fence will be required around the beach in order to control egress. How many egress points should be installed in the fence? Three or four? What will be the cost of the fence? Will it be a permanent fence for summer only or all year. If it is to be temporary, then it will have to look a lot better than the fence currently there, which many Cobourg residents regard as ugly and offensive. The temporary fence will have to be beautiful, in keeping with the dignity and elegance of Victoria Park. The fence will have to have small booths with a person at each egress point to collect the money and determine who is resident or non-resident. A fence that meets the high standards of a beautiful and elegant park will cost a pretty penny to construct and the added expense of putting up the temporary fence and taking it down year after year, the added expense of each egress booth with an employee. There will be the cost of storing the fence somewhere. How will egress be conducted? Will non-residents be given a printed ticket once they pay their entry fee? Or will they have their hand ink-stamped? Will non-residents who leave the beach to attend the canteen or… Read more »

Conor
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 3:55 pm

This has got nothing to do with virus spread. Virus spread is very low now. This has everything to do with your absolute hatred for “out of towners. Why don’t you just admit it? This hatred of tourists will come back to haunt you. Business rely on tourists and “out of towners to survive. Wake up and give your head a shake.

Informed
Reply to  Conor
29 May 2021 4:24 pm

Once you stop calling beach day trippers,tourists then you might have a better understanding. The virus has brought out the fact the the beach is overcrowded in good days and would be even worse during weekends while a pandemic is taking place. I think alot of locals are fed up with the idea of being over run by day trippers taking advantage of a free beach an hour away from where they live.

Conor
Reply to  Informed
29 May 2021 5:27 pm

I do have an understanding. Day trippers are tourists

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Informed
31 May 2021 12:20 pm

Informed is so uninformed.

Chief Scientific Adviser [to the Government of the United Kingdom], Patrick Vallance said March that, ‘It is the case that it is difficult to see how things like large beach gatherings and so on can cause a spikeThe smearing of anti-lockdown protests – spiked (spiked-online.com)

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
31 May 2021 8:20 pm

You’re right. I dont follow dribble.

MCGA
Reply to  Conor
29 May 2021 9:36 pm

Nonsense, pure and simple. For years, perhaps decades, members of the town have tried to quantify benefit derived from beach goers and marina visitors, myself included. We all came up with nothing, zero, nada, zilch. I am pretty good with numbers, in some circles considered world class, and for the life of me I could find no direct correlation. BUT, I do believe in fairness. And, fairness demands quid pro quo. You employ my (our) assets and you pay a fair price for your pleasure or benefit. That is all I am asking. And, I firmly believe any fair minded person will agree.
BTW, the only thing I hate is chronic stupidity.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
1 June 2021 6:09 am

What exactly are the expenses that beachniks cost Cobourg?. That needs to be quantified so we can know the depth of their ‘despoliation’ of the beach? The beach is regularly groomed for both Cobourg residents and non-resident beachniks. What portion of that expense should be attributed to non-resident beachniks? To be fair. What proportion of life-guard fees should the non-residents pay? What other expenses are incurred by the presence of non-resident beachniks? The whole point is to recoup our costs, so we should know what proportion of costs to recoup. Unfortunately no one knows the answers. Do they cost $1000 per year? or $10,000 or $100,000 for the year in services?

Let us note also that some non-resident beachniks walk out onto the weat pier. Perhaps the west pier should be in the mix and we can set up a gate on the pier to charge non-residents a fee for their wear and tear on the west pier. That money could be extracted from them to help pay for costs of repair.

All that said, I don’t care about fairness. I care about profit. Non-residents should bear a much higher charge for parking, enough to make a tidy profit for the Town to pay for our resident’s pleasure. I am all for extracting as much money from non-resident tourists as legally possible. Profit and cash are the highest values in our society, and tourists are inclined to have wads of money in their pockets.

BTW, the only thing I hate is mediocrity.

Anna
28 May 2021 9:16 am

Cowardly compromise. Caving in to those that don’t clean up after their visits.
Now we pay to maintain the area AND are prohibited from using it. Impossible to justify the logic of this decision.
It appears that council prefers to increase taxes and fees to Cobourg residents rather than leverage the attractiveness of this area to increase city revenue.
Open the beach to all of us all the time.

Mary
27 May 2021 7:55 pm

Article in BlogTO about the beach opening. John you got a mention 🙂
https://www.blogto.com/sports_play/2021/05/popular-beach-ontario-opening-summer/

Walking through the beach
27 May 2021 7:22 pm

What a challenging world we live in. We have access to arguably one of the best beachfronts on Lake Ontario. I walk along that same beach most days. How do we navigate between protecting our beautiful natural wonders and alienating or discriminating against what we term ‘others’? We are all ‘others’ in another area. I feel that if we listen to our chief medical officer of health, we have our answers. Let’s limit the beach; let’s mandate masks off of your own six foot area; I really don’t feel we need to provide lifeguards if the same are not provided on many Toronto area beaches. But lets be reasonable. And kind. We all need an outdoor influence. We have a great benefit of a natural area we can share – within the limits of the current pandemic.

Bill Thompson
Reply to  Walking through the beach
28 May 2021 10:41 am

The repetitive annual summer beach problem of trying to put 10 lbs into a 5 lbs bag reappears once again.after a break of a year.
Cobourg the once “undiscovered jewel” no longer exists.

Last edited 15 days ago by Bill Thompson
JimT
Reply to  Bill Thompson
29 May 2021 6:47 pm

“They called it paradise I don’t know why
Call some place paradise kiss it goodbye…”
The Eagles

Informed
27 May 2021 9:09 am

It was nice to see Councillor Darling reference a June 14th date to coincide with the Provinces schedule to re -open the Province. Im concerned that any councillor is willing to reference a poll when deciding how to vote on serious issues . I have read about another councillor referencing Facebook polls. Im ok with the decision,just not the process. There was no need for an emergency meeting as discussions should have taken place over the winter months

JimT
Reply to  Informed
29 May 2021 8:35 pm

“I don’t listen to polls. You know what dogs do to poles”.
— attributed to John Diefenbaker.

Frank
27 May 2021 9:03 am

Let’s hope the ” upcoming recommendations by the Parks and Recreation committee on handling crowds at the beach… ” will be duly considered at Council. The West Beach and the West Pier beach area was used by the public on the May 24th weekend and will likely become busier as access to Victoria Beach is curtailed on the weekends. The entire downtown waterfront needs a coherent plan.

Observer
Reply to  Frank
28 May 2021 9:52 pm

That meeting was the summer beach plan. They may change it as the summer goes but as it stands now this is the summer arrangement for the beach.

MCGA
27 May 2021 8:14 am

I am not convinced that the conclusions reached that limiting access to Cobourg locals only was a violation of assorted rights and freedoms. Both Innisfil and Ajax have employed limitation strategies to offer their citizens full access to their beaches and to dissuade outside visitors. Their argument for doing so was to simply protect their citizens from infection while not disadvantaging those citizens from the pleasures of the beach and waterfront. I do not have unfettered access to Federal or Provincial parks. Nor do I have free access to many municipal conservation areas or marinas. Why is Cobourg Beach different? And, why is it the obligation of the local taxpayers to continually foot the bill for all associated beach costs while other day visitors, get a free ride?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2021 9:27 am

Both Innisfil and Ajax have employed limitation strategies…

And what were those limitation strategies? How did they differentiate residents from non-residents and what did they require from non-residents that was not required of residents? Did these limitation strategies involve parking lots but not the beach itself?

I do not have unfettered access to Federal or Provincial parks.

Of course. But there is no differentiation based on residency status. People from Cobourg and Cobalt do not have unfettered access equally.

Nor do I have free access to many municipal conservation areas or marinas.

Just like everyone else regardless of residency.

Why is Cobourg Beach different?

Because it is NOT federal nor provincial, but municipally-owned. Victoria Park/beach was free and open for all since its inception well over 100 years ago.

And, why is it the obligation of the local taxpayers to continually foot the bill for all associated beach costs while other day visitors, get a free ride?

Because the community over the years demanded better services to the beach to maintain cleanliness and beauty and a place to honour our war dead and a bandshell to hear our local musicians, hosting community events. All this for US! We do it for ourselves and we are worth the expense.
 
I have enjoyed the pleasure of parks and beaches all over Canada, USA, and Eastern Europe. They were free and open. And get a load of this: I left my garbage behind. I placed it in the containers provided by the park service.
 
Thankfully, Cobourg residents are generously hospitable. There is the hospitality industry to be enhanced, not disparaged. All those non-resident beach-enjoyers possess lots of easy cash for the pickings. Cobourg needs to learn how to exploit this opportunity. 

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2021 11:20 am

Victoria Park/beach was free and open for all since its inception well over 100 years ago.

Wally, past mistakes should be irrelevant when deciding current policy. Also, 100 years ago thousands of GTA freeloaders didn’t visit Cobourg’s beach each weekend.

Linda
Reply to  Ken Strauss
27 May 2021 5:02 pm

Ken, 40+ years ago my family certainly visited Cobourg beach often and we were not locals. I deeply resent that you would refer to my family as GTA freeloaders.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Linda
27 May 2021 9:36 pm

Linda, how much did you pay to fund beach maintenance? Forty years ago parking was mostly free. Were you from the GTA? If you were from the GTA and paid nothing then you were, by definition, a GTA freeloader. If you were not from the GTA and paid nothing then you were simply a freeloader. Buying lunch or other goods from a local merchant changes nothing.

Kyle
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 7:35 am

The GTA has racked and stacked condos and high density housing for developers to get rich and politicians to get more taxes per square foot. They purposely left little green space in their communities. Now places like Cobourg are expected to give up their space to subsidize their greed? I call BS!

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Kyle
28 May 2021 8:11 am

Other, semi-local, areas are taking action to control the hordes. Why not Cobourg? See https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/popular-ontario-tourist-destination-imposing-big-fines-to-avoid-huge-influx-of-visitors-1.5445643

Informed
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 10:05 am

Thanks for sharing the link Ken. With a plan and a will to make difficult and sometimes unpopular decisions, a decison was made based on the fact that the community has been taken advatage of in the past.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 2:57 pm

That’s an idea I tossed out on this forum a while ago. Not so much to control the so-called hordes, but to extract cash out of their pockets. But you still have not proposed a single idea of your own to extract cash from those hordes.

Rob
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 11:08 am

I trust you keep this in mind when you visit other communities. When you take a drive to Campbellford to cross the Ranney Gorge suspension bridge and toss out your Tim Hortons cup/wrapper in the garbage or you peer over the railing at Niagara Falls but only buy lunch from a local merchant or visit the beautiful Terry Fox monument and use the washroom or maybe have a swim at Grand Bend only paying for parking but bringing a cooler for water and snacks for the kids. Have you even visited a free attraction in the Province of Ontario? Would that make you a Cobourgian freeloader?

Bryan
Reply to  Rob
28 May 2021 11:54 am

Rob,

Ken, being a good respectful citizen, would happily pay whatever fees were levied by/at a place that he visited.
You are blaming him because the municipality failed to manage its assets well and charge a user fee to help recover the asset maintenance cost, thereby loading the cost onto the local taxpayers.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Bryan
28 May 2021 3:00 pm

Meanwhile, the complainers of that situation do nothing to make a case to Cobourg council with their ideas to extract $$$$$ from beachniks. They have no ideas.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Rob
28 May 2021 12:21 pm

Rob, your mention of the Ranney Gorge suspension bridge is a poorly chosen example. Through a variety of Federal and Provincial grants we’ve ALL paid for that bridge. See http://www.friendsofferris.ca/history.html for some of the details of the funding sources.

Last edited 15 days ago by Ken Strauss
Rob
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 1:54 pm

The list of free Ontario attractions is far longer than the handful I mentioned….attracts freeloaders from all over.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 2:39 pm

“If you were from the GTA and paid nothing then you were, by definition, a GTA freeloader. If you were not from the GTA and paid nothing then you were simply a freeloader.”

If you were from Baltimore and paid nothing then you are a Baltimore freeloader.
If you were from Grafton and paid nothing then your are a Graton freeloader.
If you were from Alderville and paid nothing then you are an Alderville freeloader.
If you were from Port Hope and paid nothing then you are a Port Hope freeloader.
If you were from Cold Springs and paid nothing then you are Cold Springs freeloaders.
If you were from Wicklow and paid nothing then you are a Wicklow freeloader.
If you were from Creighton Heights and paid nothing then you are a Creighton Heights freeloader.
If you were from Roseneath and paid nothing then you are a Roseneath freeloader.
If you were from Gores Landing and paid nothing then you are a Gores Landing freeloader.
If you were from Camborne and paid nothing then you are a Camborne freeloader.

There is so much more to the issue than just the GTA hordes. Get over this GTA bigotry, and realize that people from all of the other communities also use the beach, leave their garbage behind, bury diapers, etc. Could be a harried mother from New Amherst that had buried a diaper in the sand. Some members of these GTA hordes loved the Town of Cobourg so much so that they invested in buying a home here. Good! Bring on the GTAers, make them feel welcome. Maybe a handful of them will start a business here. Quit scaring them away!

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 2:50 pm

Buying lunch or other goods from a local merchant changes nothing.”

To hell with the ice cream stores, and all the student hires they need, and those student hires use their money earned to buy clothes at Jakes. Their money circulates. Your need to condescend and denigrate small business is unhelpful. That summer splurge was just enough to keep a handful of businesses alive and for that I am grateful rather than resentful.

I have already suggested charging non-residents a premium fee for parking.

What idea have you suggested to extract $$$$ from the beachniks? Nothing! You are bereft of ideas on this score. Your chronic moaning and groaning about GTA hordes is tiring and especially unhelpful to the Town.

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
29 May 2021 9:06 am

Would 10 bucks a person or family be an adequate extraction of money from the out of town beach day trippers ? Many spend at least 25 bucks for a tank of gas plus parking. Dont you think they have an extra 10 for beach use? The beach should run close to revenue neutral. Taxpayers complain about high taxes here and here is an opportunity to balance the scales ,so to speak.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Informed
29 May 2021 1:25 pm

Informed, why should the beach be “revenue neutral”? Council seems happy to report a significant profit from both the marina and the trailer park. By charging only $10 per visitor the beach could have a profit of at least $100K each year.

Informed
Reply to  Ken Strauss
29 May 2021 4:10 pm

Even better. But revenue neutral right now looks pretty darn good. One step at a time.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Ken Strauss
27 May 2021 6:36 pm

It was never a “past mistake“. It was a damn good decision, backed up by the community, and that decision was so good that it has endured for well over 100 years.

Cut the “GTA freeloaders” crap. They are not the exclusive non-residents that turn beachnik for a day. There are those from Port Hope, Bewdley, Cold Springs, Camborne, Colborne, Wicklow, Grafton, Creighton Heights, Baltimore, Roseneath, Alderville, Gores Landing, Harwood, etc. Maybe even Whitby. Not all the evil deeds are committed by Hordes of GTA Freeloaders.

If you regard them as freeloaders, then do something to extract that extra fun cash they hold in their pockets. Exploit them. Entice them. Enough with the perpetual grump and groan. Come up with an idea to extract $$$$ from them because they are not going to go away, ever.

ben burd
Reply to  Ken Strauss
28 May 2021 7:46 am

And what do the residents of those places you visit call you – “freeloader”? Where do you go anyway; or do you stay in your backyard composing these posts?

I assume from your replies/posts where you advocate charging everybody you think should pay for all of the ‘common-good’ items we all enjoy you advocate user fees for all municipal services thus demonstrating callousness for both community collectivism and the fact that some municipal services need to be subsidised for all. You may call it fairness for taxpayers I call it selfish me-ism!

Conor
Reply to  Ken Strauss
30 May 2021 4:17 pm

When you go to the GTA are you not a freeloader? You use their roads, perhaps their washroom facilities, perhaps even park free.

Kyle
Reply to  Conor
30 May 2021 7:31 pm

Point out those free NHL games and Blue Jays games? Maybe the free GO trains, subway and streetcars. Let us not forget the 407. Free Parking….that is a belly laugh

Deborah OConnor
Reply to  Ken Strauss
30 May 2021 6:30 pm

Maybe Toronto people weren’t coming then, but the Americans certainly were. Cobourg was a well known and admired “summer colony” for them. Good thing the current crop of moaners and groaners weren’t here to try and spoil it.

Perhaps it’s time the M&Gers learned some local history, starting with this 4 part series.

https://www.cobourghistory.ca/histories/the-american-connection/45-the-american-connection-part-1

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Deborah OConnor
30 May 2021 6:49 pm

To gain an appreciation for the huge differences between today’s GTA freeloaders and the century ago contributions of tourists to Cobourg’s economy you might enjoy the Iron and Ozone article starting on page 4 of the newsletter at https://cdhs.ca/images/newsletters/NewsletterMar21.pdf

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2021 11:32 am

Innisfil and Ajax both have residency restrictions, as they are allowed to have and as Cobourg is allowed to have. (the GTA media has covered this extensively)
Not sure what beaches in the US you accessed but the majority on the South shore of Long Island, along with many in Conn and NJ require payment to access. It can come in a toll charge or parking access. The parking access, as in Ajax, is frequently free to local taxpayers and rather exorbitant for non-locals. They understand the concept and fairness of paying for use. Perhaps in your generosity you should pay an additional tax to support the beach upkeep for those non-local beach goers and relieve the other Cobourg taxpayers of the cost. Or, if a charge is eventually installed, you can stand at the gate and directly subsidize entry for those who do not wish to contribute.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2021 1:50 pm

I have already suggested two-tier parking. Charge a premium for all non-residents.
Limit the two-tier for summer months only, or on the three long-weeks of summer.

By doing it that way, everyone has access to the beach and park for free. Do you have a better idea how to extract $$$$ from non-residents.

The myopia that always comes down to $$$$$, overlooks the various ways in which non-residents benefit Cobourg, even the beachniks. An open and free beach once the playpen for wealthy Americans.

I will always stand for a free and open beach against all the tightwads, misers and cheapskates that demand otherwise.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2021 2:26 pm

From my experience, it is always those guys who contribute the least in a society that are most willing to expect others to give things they actually worked for, away for free. And, those very same people call anyone who will not provide them, and others like them, with unlimited largess, niggardly.
Beyond the limited parking fees, extracted from both residents and visitors alike, who don’t search out the free parking several blocks from the beach; there is no tangible evidence of significant contributions to the Town from outside visitors. Yes, the few buy ice cream, etc. but, as with your pronouncements on waves of post lockdown suicides, there just ain’t no evidence; just opinion.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2021 6:48 pm

From my experience, it is always those guys who contribute the least in a society that are most willing to expect others to give things they actually worked for, away for free.

From my experience, it is always those guys who condescend to others in terms of wealth possession that are misers and cheapskates. Victoria Park/Beach is not the possession of those with higher wealth, it is the wealth of all, common wealth. And it is free and open.

I note that you have zero ideas how to exploit the beachniks of their cash.

Leweez
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2021 7:23 pm

Wally,
I think what MCGA is implying, is that you do not pay property taxes to the town

Deborah OConnor
Reply to  Leweez
30 May 2021 2:31 pm

RENTERS MOST CERTAINLY PAY THEIR SHARE OF PROPERTY TAX. EVERY LANDLORD IS ALSO PAYING THE TENANTS’ SHARE AND CHARGING IT BACK IN RENT.

https://www.realestatemagazine.ca/do-residential-tenants-pay-property-tax-of-course-they-do/#:~:text=Every%20tenant%20in%20every%20municipality,garbage%20collection%2C%20roads%20and%20more.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
28 May 2021 8:55 am

Again, you get it wrong, as you did last year with the beach closure, as you have about suicide rates. The beach isn’t free and open to all. It belongs to the TOWN. And the Town should decide how it is managed, including sharing related costs and charging fees for access and use. Wellington, ON has now announced they will charge non local access fees as well as designating specific parts of their now limited to 350 person beach area, to locals only. Cobourg should employ the same strategy. Only in Wallyworld is everything free and open; where others get to pay.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
28 May 2021 3:12 pm

Make non-residents pay for access to the beach.

Very easy to say, but virtually impossible to implement. How would you do it? C’mon, step up to the plate with specifics, rather than wishy washy whines and complaints.

The vast majority of residents do not want a play for pay beach. They certainly do not want a fence around it. Cobourg citizens will not be happy to have to provide proof of residency to access their own beach for free. When you got a solution that will overcome those objections, then your Make-em-pay plans will go nowhere.

These beachniks will be coming to Cobourg, like it or not. People with brains and imagination will know how to extract $$$$ from them, grumpy groaners will not.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
28 May 2021 3:34 pm

Wellington is doing it…read, learn. Most individuals carry a driver’s license which establishes their permanent residence. On the South shore of Long Island you presented your real estate tax information and received a SEASON PASS…that goes all the way back to the 1960s. NO pass…you pay lots of cash/credit or no access to the beach.
How do you speak for what everyone else in Cobourg would be comfortable or happy doing; you get it wrong so damn often you could well be a contraindicator.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  MCGA
28 May 2021 4:44 pm

The non-residents are all paying extra for parking, not for access to the beach proper.

How do I know how the people of Cobourg would feel about fencing the beach, because no Cobourg resident has ever approached Town Council to argue for such partition. All the moaners and groaners decline to act on their proposals when it comes to the meat and potatoes. I am the one here who proposed premium parking fees for non-residents. I have long advocated for extracting as much money as we can from those non-residents. I came up with ideas, whereas you come up with nothing other than a condescending moan. Give us an idea to extract cash, just a single idea. I am presuming that you do have some capacity to be creative but I could be wrong.

MCGA
Reply to  Wally Keeler
28 May 2021 6:30 pm

Wrong again Wally, Wellington is also charging a $10 beach access fee to all nonresidents. Not only can I be creative, I can actually read…you might try to learn how.

Kyle
Reply to  Wally Keeler
27 May 2021 5:25 pm

Parking=congestion in the Park. Erect a very tasteful fence around the park with controlled access. Week day use by residents who can walk, bike etc to it. Show your resident pass for free access. Start putting in some great amenities for the residents like free high speed wifi, covered picnic areas, water park etc. For special events charge appropriate entrance fees. A novel idea of doing something for the people of the community to enjoy first. Call it a private park who cares. I missed the vote where everyone decided Cobourg should be some cheap tourist clip joint.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Kyle
28 May 2021 3:15 pm

Give us a design of a “tasteful fence”? What would that look like? A steel fence, wood, fence, plastic fence, but tasteful of course. What kind of fence do you think Cobourg residents will regard as tasteful?
And how expensive will this “tasteful fence” be?

Kyle
Reply to  Wally Keeler
29 May 2021 2:58 pm

Hmmm, maybe a Victorian stye iron fence with field stone pillars. Expense, what matter. This is Cobourg, where and extra mil a year for the CCC goes unnoticed. Wait, that police records check piggy bank could take care if this in the wink of an eye. With Rotary Club support it is a guarantee.

Conor
Reply to  Kyle
30 May 2021 4:20 pm

Perhaps a nice electric barbed wire fence would suffice?

Informed
Reply to  Conor
31 May 2021 9:19 am

Maybe for the lighhouse area. Look at todays northumberland video. Apparently people cant read and have no problem crawling throught the gates when its clearly marked off limits. I would like to see them charged with trespassing and fined instead of the electrified barb wire as you suggest.

Concerned
Reply to  MCGA
29 May 2021 12:21 pm

Are you willing to spend the outrageous legal fees to find out in an extended legal battle to find out if it is indeed a violation of people’s rights, some group will quickly file a law suit. Parking fees, this council won’t increase them. So now what? Where does it stop, do we not let non-residents use our parks, arenas? Or we are only “nice” to non-residents when it will make us a few bucks?

Concerned
Reply to  Concerned
29 May 2021 12:49 pm

People are referring to what Prince Edward County is planning to do and we don’t even know if it will have an affect. The new rules are for this year and I imagine it won’t change much other than increase revenues. And reading the article their problems are a lot worse than ours…illegal parking, illegal camping the beach is small so overcrowding I’m sure is more of an issue for them.

jimq26
26 May 2021 9:11 pm

Well done! Makes good sense to all I’m sure.

Lemon Cake
Reply to  jimq26
26 May 2021 9:38 pm

As the rest of Ontario and Canada reopen in the waning days of the pandemic, our Council is spending approx $20,000 implementing last years Port Hope beach policy for Cobourg. Maybe next summer they’ll spend their budget to open the beach with masks?

MCGA
Reply to  Lemon Cake
27 May 2021 7:16 am

Four obvious differences:
– the $20K cost is not borne by the Cobourg taxpayers
– Port Hope beach attracts nothing like the volume of visitors as Cobourg
– the active status of the plague is sloping in the right direction
– and, most significantly, this year we have effective vaccines.
The Council has done its job and effectively protected the community.

Lemon Cake
Reply to  MCGA
27 May 2021 8:23 am

Taking a short term week by week approach makes sense – this stretches into September when broad reopening is underway. I’m fine with a week by week assessment – that would enable them to follow the science and the actual statistics. What they’ve done here is another thing altogether.

MCGA
Reply to  Lemon Cake
27 May 2021 9:39 am

This is a tricky bug. You can look at other Canadian Provinces and countries that, at the onset, controlled the spread of infection and resultant deaths; then, later on, were very quickly overwhelmed by outbreaks. The short term stat does not always serve as the best predictor of the future or the best basis for long term strategy. Sometimes, as Council bravely did last year, you have to assess what is currently before you, make a reasoned decision, and live with the extended results. That’s why they get paid the big bucks.

Bill Thompson
Reply to  jimq26
27 May 2021 8:48 am

What is the method / hours controlled by whom, to control the 1200 limit daily?
Once one leaves the beach for example to put more money in parking meters that person cannot return ?

Conor
Reply to  Bill Thompson
27 May 2021 9:13 am

Why not every second Wednesday, and every second Monday.

Bill Thompson
Reply to  Bill Thompson
27 May 2021 11:42 am

For further consideration ,with 1200 capacity daily recommended, porta potties inside the fence ,how is cleanliness of them maintained ?
. Should that not be a major consideration or maybe I just overlooked it.

Last edited 16 days ago by Bill Thompson
Ken
Reply to  Bill Thompson
27 May 2021 12:49 pm

Are we not using coloured ‘wrist bands’?