A year or so ago, we had some interesting posts by Grahame Woods which were “opinion” and not reporting of news, and this post is in that category – not a neutral reporting of facts but instead an opinion on when the pandemic will end. In following the news and participating in volunteer activities, I have come to some considered opinions about this new world we find ourselves in. I think the big unanswered question is – When will it end? No one can be sure of anything in the future let alone predicting the end of a pandemic but we don’t so much need to know when the pandemic will end, but instead when will we get back to “normal”? Listening to the PM, he has said it will be “weeks” before restrictions can be lifted but will things be “normal” then?
Conditions for lifting restrictions
Before there’s any change in the crisis, there needs to be an assurance that people will stop catching the new corona virus flu. This is limited with social distancing but that is not “normal”. One major problem is that social distancing is not possible with many activities where crowds or close proximity are inherent. These include any activity in a community centre, theatre, sports stadium, church, schools and to a lesser extent in parks and beaches. The only way such proximity can be allowed would be if we know that all, or at least most, people are immune – that is, have recovered from the disease or been vaccinated. But there are situations where social distancing is possible – stores, many small businesses, take-out food, deliveries. These situations are enhanced with face masks.
Prediction
There are two time-frames:
- Before most people have been vaccinated or become immune by recovering
- After that time.
Before Vaccination – Some relaxing of restrictions might be as early as June 2020
- I predict that all stores will open and operate much like supermarkets now with a limited number in the store at a time and required to wear facemasks – the rationale is that it works for Supermarkets and food stores.
- Restaurants may open conditional on no more than 4-5 to a table with tables spaced wider than previously. Masks are not possible if you are eating but could be required until you sit down. The reasoning would be that otherwise these restaurants will close permanently.
- No theatres, community centres, churches or sports stadiums will operate since social distancing is impossible. No team sporting events. No parades. No house parties. Entertainment will have to be via the Internet and TV.
- Many workers will work from home
- Schools may open in late Fall if authorities believe children are less susceptible and non-vaccine treatments prove effective. The earliest possible open date would be September. That’s what the jungle drums are telling me.
- Parks may open for usual activities (other than team events) if authorities think people are disciplined enough to keep groups to 5 or less and practice social distancing – personally, I would not have such faith. I’d predict this would not be until the Fall.
After vaccination – when most people have immunity – possibly early 2021
- A return to “normal” with many people still wearing masks and practicing social distancing
- Many workers continue to work from home
- Theatres, churches and community centres re-start programs but have reduced attendance since people are still wary.
- Vaccination and/or a mass immunity is a pre-requisite for a return to normal.
The impact on the economy will be horrendous and will probably force businesses to open before we are all vaccinated – but economic consequences are even more difficult to predict.
Another issue getting a lot of attention is using smartphones to track contacts and whether a person is keeping their mandated quarantine. I can’t see that making a difference to the time line but it may help limit the number of cases.
I don’t know if you have noticed, but apart from Covid-19 news, there’s nothing much happening in the news “world” – that likely means there will be a longer gap between reports from Cobourg News Blog….
I haven’t covered every detail but you get the picture. I’d like someone to explain how we can get back to “normal” any quicker. As usual feel free to comment. If you have a long response, email it to me and I may post it as a follow-up “opinion” article.
Note about this article – 16 April 2020
Everyone should be aware that I get notified of 100% of the comments on this blog. You will probably also note that many of the comments on this particular article are way off topic and would normally be deleted. But since this is an unusual article with the label “Opinion”, as long as people refrain from libel or slander, then I will allow discussion to continue. Mild criticism of other commenters is permitted but don’t overdo it. It’s hard to draw the line but believe it or not, some comments that did overdo it have been deleted in the past. In general, strong criticism or disparagement of a person (real name or not) is not allowed – but criticism of an argument is allowed. E.g. calling someone a socialist is allowed – it simply implies a set of beliefs. Calling someone a liar is not allowed,
And although off topic is permitted on this particular post, that’s not generally the case
John Draper
Print Article:
“Cargill is one of the two primary beef suppliers for McDonald’s Canada.”
Well, there goes the quarter pounder cheese!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/cargill-deena-hinshaw-covid-19-1.5536916
“We get 100% of our blood pressure medicine from China, 100%. There are 700,000 people in the United States that take blood pressure medicine every single day. We have a 13-day supply.” — Kyle Bass, Founder and Chief Investment Officer, Hayman Capital Management. Mr Bass is also a founding member of the Committee on the Present Danger: China, and he is also Chairman of the Board of The Rule of Law Foundation. https://youtu.be/exASOIXH8So
Does Canada get its blood pressure medicine from China? What exactly is our drug dependency on the Communist Party of China? Could our govt be a model of transparency and inform us of that fact or perhaps the govt financed news media will dig into this and more? Yawn.
Wally, The numbers presented seem to be somewhat understated. Given the stated affiliations, Mr Bass may not be a credible source.
700K is only 0.2% of the US population and if true, it would mean that the US has one of the lowest rates in the world. Given the north american diet and sedentary lifestyle, this seems unlikely.
The following link is to some 2013 stats from the American Heart Association ( also a dubious source according to some/many).
“In the United States, about 77.9 million (1 out of every 3) adults have high blood pressure.”
https://www.heart.org/idc/groups/heart-public/@wcm/@sop/@smd/documents/downloadable/ucm_319587.pdf
I don’t think that it is reasonable to believe that only 0.9% of those with high blood pressure take daily medication for the condition.
The usage error notwithstanding, the concern that much of the NA drug supply originates in China is valid. The 100% claim is a bit overstated as there are some local manufacturers and other supplier countries such as India
https://www.cfr.org/blog/us-dependence-pharmaceutical-products-china
I understood that India had restricted exports of a number of pharmaceutical products so that may not be a viable alternative source.
The Indian government has not provided a reason for the export ban, simply stating that the export of 26 active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs), and the medicines made from them, was “hereby restricted with immediate effect and till further orders”. But with India itself sourcing 13 of the 26 APIs from Hubei province in China, the epicentre of the coronavirus outbreak, it is widely assumed that India is moving to protect its own populace from any possible shortages. March 4, The Independent.
You may or may not be the perfect guy/gal for the job, but your title of “Fact Checker” is exactly what we need around here (and all over the internet too for that matter). Very little fact checking going on at all times, but especially in the last few months.
I’m glad to see “Fact Checker” providing statistics. They certainly present facts – although as someone pointed out data can be manipulated to say many things. I hope it doesn’t become a website of dueling links. People’s ideas and communication of some very good ideas could be lost. Unfortunately there was a period of very pointed replies to people complete with a link that would coached in hurtful language at times.
I like the tone of the blog in this last debate?/suggestion?/information” . It is also about people’s thoughts in a time when communication is very important – think about EMP – the Korean’s stated that they had the power to invoke EMP. Truly be in an isolated state under an EMP condition. At lease here people can share.
Which Korea? North? South? Both?
Kim Jong Jeong
Speaking of checking facts:
• what is EMP?
• who is Kim Jong Jeong?
Sorry Frenchy – used phonetic spelling it is actually Kim Jong-Un. I’m sure you’ll recognize the name now. EMP – is blocking electronic transmissions – all commication stops by electronic sources. Unless one has a car built in the 50s, generators, all modern communications, telephone, internet you name it. Kim Jong-Un states he now has the power to unleash this and has threatened the western world with it. There was also a great book at the library with a scenario on it. Grocery stores emptied, medicine requiring refridgeration such as for diabetes spoiled, cars stopped where they were – a very powerful weapon indeed. As I have a low opinion of this man I didn’t look up the spelling of his name. I believe Trump refers to him as the Rocket Man.
Absolutely understated. I re-listened and yep, he said 700,000. I suspect he misspoke. 77.9 million have it. The 100% claim related only to blood pressure meds, not to a larger field of meds. Does India supply blood pressure meds to the USA?
How the Communist Party of China controls your bacon. https://www.theepochtimes.com/pork-plant-at-center-of-south-dakotas-virus-outbreak-had-visit-from-ccp-tied-owners_3313529.html
There will be food shortages. https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/12/business/meat-plant-closures-smithfield/ And the package may say ‘Product of Canada‘ but the produce grown in Canada is shipped to China for processing and packaging and shipped back to Canada. Perhaps this needs a rethink. The Age of Aquarius seems to have ended prematurely.
All produce grown in Canada?
Did I say that? Of course not ALL produce grown in Canada.
Sorry Wally, just trying to make sense of this post. You stated “the produce grown in Canada is shipped to China for processing and packaging and shipped back to Canada”.
So, I guess some produce…
Is it very much? Frozen veggies type of thing? Any examples or idea of how much?
You have stated more than once that I have reading and comprehension difficulties so I’m just trying to clear this up in order that I may better understand.
I don’t know about China but take a look at https://www.pma.com/~/media/pma-files/research-and-development/canada.pdf?la=en Mostly to the US,
Canada exports 799,749 tons of potatoes yet imports 303,560 tons of potatoes,
Canada exports 154,675 tons of tomatoes yet imports 193,483 tons of tomatoes and
Canada exports 107,516 tons of peppers yet imports 119,378 tons of peppers.
It is probably logical but it certainly seems strange!
Depends on different time of the years , very few local tomatoes / Peppers from October to June
Suspect geography too. Might be cheaper for western provinces to get potatoes from Idaho than P.E.I.
Still, curious as to what produce we could ship all the way to China, have processed and brought back before it spoiling or losing quality.
Makes you wonder Frenchy – in long haul the load was bottled water from Ontario down to San Antonio, potato chips from Toronto to all over the U.S. south, frozen pies from Canada down to Kentucky. Geography? Only a part of it.
Mark, I’m not certain that you are correct.
From https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/tomato
How often to do see local vegetables in the local No Frills , usually only late summer or fall
Usually I am in No Frills once or twice a week , but it been almost 2 weeks now so it could be different 😉
They’re not cheap but No Frills has Canadian (greenhouse) tomatoes all winter. For some details on how Canadian governments are impacting our self sufficiency see https://business.financialpost.com/feature/canada-150-hunger-for-tomatoes-turns-canada-into-greenhouse-power
The bad news is that food labels don’t tell the whole story. A host of Chinese imports are hiding behind “Made in Canada” labels, from the freeze-dried strawberries in your cereal to the wheat gluten in your hamburger buns. “Made in Canada” simply means that 51 per cent of the production cost was incurred in Canada; the ingredients could come from anywhere, and increasingly they come from China. For example, manufacturers can import apple juice concentrate from China – for about one-fifth the cost of Canadian concentrate – add water to it in Canada, and mark it “Made in Canada.” https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/made-in-canada—via-china/article1078056/
“Sow the seeds of victory, plant and raise your own vegetables”. https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-the-reality-about-food-and-drug-shortages-due-to-covid-19?video_autoplay=true
Perhaps there will be some positive things. A “correction” like predicted for the stock market.
Economics – fewer dollars to chase prices come down. Perhaps rents will come down enabling young people to move to their first apartment, even on a share today it is so costly. Shoes, clothes other necessities and mall rents were drop. Changes coming but what will they be?
My mother is 90 living in her own house in Toronto
She is just amazed on how great the government has stepped up to help people
She get calls from her MP and MPP to see if she need any help with anything
She remembers ‘30’s and war years when there was minimal government help
Yes, somethings could of been done differently, but I believe they are doing the best they can under a very hard situation
We should thank our lucky stars to be living in Canada
If HST had to be increased to pay for all this I would be fine with this
That’s very nice for your mom Mark however I imagine you might feel differently if your mother was in one of those long term care homes where people have been left to die alone.
Successive provincial and federal governments have ignored the recommendations from SARS (including Dr. Tam) and known problems with long term care. Our health care system operates over capacity at the best of times.
We have failed to protect our most vulnerable while simultaneously throwing our economy (and mostly the younger citizens) under the bus and under a new pile of debt.
I am surprised more Canadians aren’t angry. I know I am.
Toronto recalls more than 62,000 faulty Chinese surgical masks, worth $200,000, that were distributed to long-term care facilities, according to an April 7 press release. The city is now investigating whether anyone had exposure to the virus while wearing the masks. https://www.theepochtimes.com/wuhan-flight-to-australia-delivers-90-tons-of-possibly-defective-medical-supplies_3306297.html
What is there to get angry about ?
The condition in nursing homes have been this way for decades and this is why they want to build a new Golden Plough lodge
We should be happy about the things government got right and learned from what they got wrong
Most of the people here post about taxes being to high but still want all the safety nets the government provides
The problem is that the governments(s) didn’t learn. That makes me angry (and sad)
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ottawa-had-a-playbook-for-a-coronavirus-like-pandemic-14-years-ago/#comments
I am and have been impressed by the condition, the quality of care and the diligence of management at Golden Plough Lodge for the last couple of years. There seems to be no compelling reason to replace it. Don’t for a moment assume that there is anything substandard there that needs to be revised or replaced; the staff and management are always doing an impressive job and the building appears to be in excellent shape, and I welcome the opportunity to say so.
The Golden Plough Lodge is not up to new government standard , plain and simple , There are places that you can ask yourself to find out why
I believe , you will see the drawings changed , redesigning of the ventilation system so areas can easily change in negative pressure rooms.
Possible even the elimination of all shared rooms and going to all private rooms
To prevent some of the unfortunate deaths that have happened in the past month
Well said, Mark. It seems many posters are new to our area and know little of our history. The Golden Plough was built as a workhouse for the homeless and indigent of the time (1860-ish). It evolved into what it is now, a home for the frail elderly, one of the few municipally operated facilities left in Ontario. We’re lucky to have it in the face of all those newer for-profit operations where making money is the goal rather than the care and protection of our elderly population.
It’s now just about 160 years old: a patchwork of additions and old sections cobbled together over the years. The planning and preparations for the new facility have been in the works for several years now, let’s get on with it!
Which municipality? Why is the county funding the replacement?
It is a County responsibility. Wasn’t that obvious?
Help me out Deborah. What part in your post would make it obvious that the GPL is a County responsibility? The part about “one of the few municipally operated facilities left in Ontario”?
No way, Deborah. That old House of Refuge building with the columns was replaced some time back by the present building, which is quite modern and in excellent shape.
You should visit GPL as soon as they allow, if only to see the framed photos in the corridors showing the old and new(er) facility, which is far too valuable to demolish.
Ms. O’Conner is probably thinking of the House of Refuge. See http://images.ourontario.ca/Cobourg/18993/data You must be “new to our area” to know a little about the history of Cobourg.
Not so. Deborah and I were neighbours, rather more years back than I care to think about as youngsters on a certain short little street near downtown Cobourg.
I am aware that Deborah has been in Cobourg for many years. I was replying to her comment:
“It seems many posters are new to our area and know little of our history.”
Thanks Ken, and JimT, for correcting my mistake. It’s no sin to be wrong or I’d be long gone.
I agree Deborah. I knew nothing about GPL until a family member moved in there and then I got a surprise to see how modern, well-kept and well-run it is. It’s a credit to all who labour there to help maintain such high standards.
After reading the attached Article, I believe some good will come out of this global crisis. Then I read some of the comments here, and realize, unfortunately it looks like something worse than this must have to happen to change some people. Can’t imagine how many more deaths that would be?
(Yes I know it’s written by an American)
(If anything, note the last paragraph)
https://forge.medium.com/prepare-for-the-ultimate-gaslighting-6a8ce3f0a0e0
To all concerned. If these exchanges are to mean anything it’s important to stay on the subject which John sets up with excellent reporting. Reading the posts below, this blog has gone right off the rails within the following 5 to 8 entries. In many cases it’s the same players arguing politics and their unrelenting personal grudges.
In the meantime … How will it all end?
I don’t have any answers, but am concerned with what will it mean for the future. Since pandemics will become recognized as inevitable (as they have been at least 3 times a century in the past) the issue of how we prepare and who does the preparing will become accepted if not urgent. This will bring out national differences such as those between the US and Canada. With our neighbour it’s all about the individual as in “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”. For Canada it’s all about the group as in “Peace, Order and Good Government”, a sentiment that goes back to the Confederation Act of 1867 if not the Royal Proclamation of 1763.
My guess is that if we stick to our principles it will be an independent, bipartisan group that does the planning and procurement. Other related issues will be a guaranteed minimum wage.
There’s much more including the often forgotten admonition to “Love thy neighbour as thyself” (and that from a cranky old agnostic such as myself.)
We have a guaranteed minimum wage. Do you mean guaranteed minimum income? Something else entirely!
Dubois … Annual income is what I meant. Thanks! But still let’s stay with the subject John has offered for comment.
A permanent guaranteed income is a likely outcome of this pandemic (we have it allready for at least 16 weeks). Why do you think that discussing it is off topic?
Did you know that you can edit and revise you comments for a certain length of time after they first appear?
Hello Keith – so you figure socialism will be the order of the new day? I don’t have answers either but tend to think new entrepreneurs will jump in for the failed businesses. We do have such organizations as the Toronto Disaster Relief Committee that I thought was supposed to prepare for this – haven’t heard much about them and what they have prepared. Perhaps there will be an awakening of where the tax dollars are being spent in tax payer funded government employment and politicians’ pay packages rather than funding tax payer services such as health care, sewage, road work and old age care where only the rich can afford the rates charged.
Observer, I believe that Keith is correct; social programs will significantly expand and taxes on our workers and retirees will have to increase enormously to fund their largess. If you were comfortable in 2019 then prepare for a greatly reduced standard of living in 2021 and afterwards! The pay for politicians is a small fraction of government costs. The real problem is the costs of vote buying, pandering to various special interest groups and politically correct virtue signaling with little regard for developing a robust self-sufficient economy to benefit all Canadians.
Failed businesses that performed a valuable service will soon be replaced by new ones with new approaches. Businesses that were merely hanging on will permanently disappear. A great local example is Market + Smors who have developed an entirely new business model almost overnight and appear to be thriving.
We seem to agree on the last paragragh you wrote Ken. As I wrote above new entrepreneurs will jump in. As for the above paragraph I don’t agree with you about some things.
Good to have a forum and put forth thoughts – at least people are thinking!
Observer, I’d be delighted to be proven wrong regarding my first paragraph. What is your area of disagreement and why?
Well thank you for asking Ken – didn’t want to take up space as it is offerings on what people think – doesn’t matter if I disagree or not but since you asked –
Politicians – our politicians here in Cobourg are certainly not part of it – their pay is not exhorbitant at all. There are others though – should you serve one term or a partial term in other municipal jurisdictions even if just filling in as a councillor died as an example – you get a severance pay out. Seems rich. Terms are now 4 years – under Employment Standards a worker must put in 3 years before they are eligible for a mere 2 weeks. Feds get pension plans that would make most people drool and as it encompasses all past elected MPs the cost must be staggering and they are all indexed. Things sneaking in – retirement parties at end of tenure all tax payer funded. Cost control for reimbursement of expenses – they keep putting out new directives as to what is allowed despite the first one being quite clear so outlandish expenses get paid under guise of unclear direction.
This is getting long Ken – but thank you for asking. I find the main part of your comments are ones I agree with over the time I have come to this blog. Glad you contribute.
Observer, I completely agree. Local politicians other than the Mayor (~$100K when serving as Warden + boards) are underpaid for the work that they do. The pensions for MPPs/MPs are ridiculously generous. Expense payments are too generous. Etc. Etc. My point was that these amounts, while abusive, are small relative to other government expenditures that provide little benefit to Canadians. Even worse are actions that only serve to divide us.
“A robust self-sufficient economy?”
That will be quite a trick.
Among the G7, the Canadian economy is heavily reliant on exports.
Runs between 35% and 45% of GDP. Germany about 47%, Japan 18%, China 19%, USA 12%.
With oil prices and other resource export prices cratering, Canada will be struggling.
The costs of Canada’s social safety net will be ballooning without pandering and vote buying.
Of course we can go back to the austerity in vogue during the Depression.
And William Lyon Mackenzie’s famous statement that he would not “give a five cent piece” for unemployment relief.
Those were the days!
My parents remembered them well Walter. We were raised with a little yellow piggy bank, admonished to save a good downpayment on larger purchases, plan overs was my mother’s term for leftovers – get out in that kitchen and rattle those pots and pans – take out and even heat and serves were reserved as treats in our household. Certainly not the Depression for my generation and we only had one bathroom along with all the neighbours and no one thought anything of it. Simpler homes. Perhaps that vacation plan is a little too ambition or whatever for the budget – many went camping too in provincial parks.
So things may not be as rosy – but doom and gloom. Hopefully everyone will put their economic hats on and things will eventually be back to business for the coming generations.
Yes, Walter, Canada will struggle. On the other hand, Canada could be self sufficient in food (tomatoes but no fresh fruit in February), in energy, in building materials, in minerals and in many other areas. Taken together we could be far closer to being self sufficient than almost any other country. I don’t understand your comment regarding exports. Being largely self sufficient obviously doesn’t preclude exports.
Could be a problem.
Foreign trade usually involves imports and exports.
Countries get testy when you only sell and don’t buy.
Since about 75% of Canadian exports go to the US. they can get very testy.
Would play totally into Trump’s hands. and he would start a trade war and win.
We had trouble enough getting NAFTA back on track.
And what would our farmers say when China no longer buys our farm products.
We are playing with very big boys here.
Always have.
Indeed, what will Canada say when the Communist Party of China decides not to purchase Canadian products. “An expanding list of Canadian farm exports is hitting obstacles at Chinese ports, leaving sellers of soybeans, peas and pork scrambling amid a bitter diplomatic dispute.: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-china-trade-1.5114989
For the record:
William Lyon Mackenzie died in 1861.
His grandson, William Lyon Mackenzie King [1874-1950] was Prime Minister of Canada during much of the depression years.
Just to clarify.
Ken … You talk about a “greatly reduced standard of living” Your definition seems to hinge on lower taxes and how much more money you can keep in your pocket. I disagree!
We’ve become much more materialist since WWII. Expectations have gotten excessive, people more rushed, less value on relationships. I grew up in a 1,000 sq ft double duplex in Montreal. Everyone on the street knew each other, a mix of French and English. Out for the evening? a neighbour would look after your kids. Couples would get together at least once a week to play Bridge. I remember laughter coming out of the dinning room when I was trying to do homework. On Halloween some adults would dress up in disguise, mix with the kids. Callenge was to guess who the big ones were. We didn’t need a car until I was 14, and then only because my dad wanted to take neighbours for a Sunday drive. On the way home in the evening the adults would all sing the old songs many of which I can still remember. My parents went through the Depression in a small town of 700 people south of Saskatoon. My mother reminded me that “we were poor but we didn’t know it”. There’s much more.
Geatest satisfaction for me comes out of my relationship with others and I’m convinced that’s where real satisfaction lies. I trust my government, but insist on transparency and respectful debate.
I have no problem paying my taxes. True equality involves making sure everyone has the same opportunity in life, then it’s up to them to see what they can do with it. Poverty is insane and enormously expensive to the State.
I have little regard for the cynicism often displayed here for politicians. I’ve run for Council here and in London. Vertually all politicians work hard, are concerned about their community and earn their pay. Cobourg’s Town Council and Staff are one of the best I’ve ever experienced and that includes London Ontario, Burlington VT, Annapolis Maryland and Washington DC. There is a good chance we will have learned some important lessons as we endure this pandemic. Hopefully we’ll emerge a more caring community of people, work toward a less material, more equitable society … that is if the cynics don’t have their way first!
Oh Yes! And as far as Observer (who ever he is) is concerned and his belief that I’m a “socialist” (what ever that is) I would like it known that I believe in the capitalist free enterprise system provided it is tempered by Christian Morality.
delete
Ran into a technical problem the system kept posting twice.
Keith I got the impression you were a socialist as you advocate for a guaranteed minimum income. So what happens to the people already at the new suggested level? Do you bump them up especially if they are retired and find themselves designated with this group after a lifetime of work? Their buying powers reduced and a rung down due to providing guaranteed incomes?
By-the-by Keith I do not appreciate being addressed as “Observer – whoever he is”. If I used my real name you’ld never believe me anyway!!! However courtesy is address please. Ever think of reading the Desiderata? To me guaranteed minimum income interprets to socialism.
Observer, whoever you are, guaranteed incomes, or minimum wages are supported by many more people than “socialists”.
I know that President Trump, tried to brand Bernie Sanders as a socialist, as if that that would somehow make him non-American and therefore unacceptable. However in Canada the NDP is perfectly acceptable, and has formed sucessful governments in many provinces.
My cousins in the States think so Greg about the Democrats. But then you didn’t answer the question if people already at the suggested miniumum income – would you bump them up too so they would retain their standing? Like Canada – two sides to a coin – Right and Left leaning. Only here we have a bunch of party and seem always confused politically. As you only use Greg H. shall I stoop to your form of address and say Greg H. whoever you are? Maybe you’re Mary or Jill or Ralph H. An idea is what you should be looking at not a name.
Disappointed neither Keith or you Greg? answered the question presented to you both.
So Senator Hugh Segal, Andrew Coyne and other prominent Conservatives and supporters of capitalism are socialists, they would hear about that from you – whoever you are!
Ben – whomever! not whoever! However I was not asking you – is it Ben – why would you think Ben is any different? Doesn’t identify you – you could be an undigested piece of beef for all I know. Hard to hear you sometimes Ben? Quiet in the courthouse the monkey wants to speak!
Struck a nerve: whomever, whoever, whatever, I am really called Ben. Been around a long time and most people know who I am, you probably do but pretend not to. What is your real name Observer?
Ooops did I disturb the monkey house? whatever that remark was supposed to mean!
Ben? – You obviously are seeking attention therefore I shouldn’t reply at all as surely even you get the point about not being identifiable. Next Gorrilla!
Observer … The point about everyone using their real name is that by eliminating anonimity the discussion becomes closer to a face-to-face conversation wherein people behave in a more respectful way toward each other, stay calm, possibly listen better. An example is you and Ben associating each other with lessor primates … funny in a way if you like crude humour. I can assure you I’m no Little Mary Sunshine but in my experience insults may make you feel good but do little to further your argument, win others over to your cause. I believe everyone should use their full name.
Ok Keith – what would you think of a name like Winston Churchill? Would you think I was using a psydenoym? Would you think I was simply trying to tag onto something to make my ideas more important? Did you read all the insults from Ben with regard to the name I post by? They were multiple. I also caught your remark Keith. About real names – then why are there similar conversations between people posting with real sounding names. What is in a name Keith – it is the idea – familiarize yourself with the Desiderata. I spoke to Ben reasonably until I was forced to resort to lower level after many remarks. However me thinks referring to you as a Socialist is what this is all about. That is what your ideas convey to me, if you see it as something terrible expressing as you do I am surprised.
Ben, few thinking people would consider Mr. Segal, a former aide to Red Tory Bill Davis, to be a conservative. Mr. Coyne is of the same ilk.
There are two possibilities:
1) Everybody moves up so there is no net change except that prudent savers move down due to attendant inflation reducing the buying power of their savings.
2) Only the lowest rung moves up and they are now equal to those who worked harder (or were luckier) than those in a previously almost lowest rung.
Neither is a particularly attractive nor fair outcome.
Us socialists envision that the GAI (Guaranteed Annual Income) would be administered through the tax system. As a person’s earned income would rise, the GAI would be reduced or clawed back. Provincial welfare systems do this routinely, it’s not rocket science.
Does that help?
Deborah – Pierre Ellitot Trudeau insitituted that form of income assist in the 80s. More closely termed Guaranteed Annual Income was tried as test project by the Wynne government very recently and cancelled by the Ford government recently as not sustainable. The Liberal Party and the NDP are both left leaning parties – voting here with Liberals – left, NDP – left, Conservatives – right – the Green Party, the American system of 2 parties might move Canada forward instead of splitting the vote and nothing gets done. Although the U.S. election was pretty well 50/50 this last time – hence they do nothing but argue. Unusual to have a vote so closely divided.
Nice to see you decided to offer your thoughts in this blog of exchange of ideas – however wasn’t fond of your last line.
” More closely termed Guaranteed Annual Income was tried as test project by the Wynne government very recently and cancelled by the Ford government recently as not sustainable”
Not true cancelled for ideological reasons, the the data was not evaluated before the cancellation. This action violated a campaign promise by Ford.
Disappointing to see so many willing to see another blogger insulted by the slurs to my name. There are rude people everywhere unfortunately. People unable to view ideas without making a cheap crack as their opinion differs and they can’t think of an intelligent rebuttal.
Keith, it is difficult to communicate if the usual meanings of words are ignored. Most (all?) dictionaries define “standard of living” in terms of material things. For example, the first in Google is “Standard of living is the degree of wealth and material comfort available to a person or community”. You appear to be confusing “standard of living” with “quality of life” which is something else entirely.
Ken … “Quality of life” and “standard of living” basically refer to the same thing, the first being more abstract, difficult to measure in objective terms, the second less so, usually measured in material terms including dollars. I’ve talked about ensuring that everyone has roughly the same opportunity to get on with their life.
In this day and age that means the availability of a post secondary education in a trade or profession, a decent and stable place to call home, day care when necessary, good food on the table. Is that really too much to expect?
The Capitalist system, left on its’ own is a highly competative, ruthless, winner-take-all means of creating and distributing wealth if not power over others. For one thing it actively relies on inflation which deminishes any wealth an individual has. To offset this the wealthy, who by definition have more wealth than they can possibly spend to maintained even their inflated standard of living, invest to protect the wealth they have and create more. The less wealthy spend and stimulate the basic pillars of the economy.
Forget about any moral issues … Poverty, the lack of the basic essentials, makes absolutely no sence what so ever, even in capitalist terms. It is criminal that we don’t act once and for all to fix this. When I say “we” I mean you and I
Just before the defeat of the Paul Martin Government the Liberals had established a plan for universal day care with agreement from all the Provinces. Harpers’ minority government killed it. Too expensive he said, a statement that ignored reputable studies showing how the economy and society at large would benefit.
What I’ve said here isn’t a matter of “Right or Left”, terms that don’t make sense any more and which only confuse and under mine constructive debate … it’s a matter of Common Sence!
How will the economy and society at large benefit from your Adult Fitness Park? Feeding the poor and caring for the sick is a far better way to spend public money.
Canuck Patriot … Fitness Park has nothing to do with this conversation.
In the meantime and FYI as of April 1 project has received 25,000 from Feds who have extended access to March 2022.
As I’ve explained in detail before, offering to show anyone including yourself our 90+ page State of the Project Report, the Plan is to raised balance of 125,000 projected cost from public sources. Two local contractors committed early on to building the base which is worth 20,000.
Fit4LifeCobourg public awareness program planned to follow opening of the Park will encourage people to improve their physical fitness and stay fit. Includes suggestions about changing habits and becoming more physically active during everyday routines. The Project in total will be an invaluable asset to all the population. Where implemented in a thoughtfully and comprehensive manner these projects reduce level of diabetes, obesity and hospital admissions and improve cardiac health. Even a section on improving the health and fitness of pre and post Partin mother’s.
Keith, funding is limited so we must choose what to do and what to forego. Your comments imply that a vanity project such as an adult fitness park is more worthwhile than any new plan to help the poor, improve retirement homes, increase the salaries of healthcare workers or even to aid grandpa’s in Africa (as you previously advocated). Is that your opinion? If so I’m disgusted!
If you can prove Ken that any of the proposed budget for the AFP could be diverted or comes from funds that would cure social ills within the Municipal budget I would agree with you otherwise you are floating a very big opinionated red herring!
In other posts you have decried the use of opinion as opposed to facts why deviate now?
Ben, that is silly. The money has not yet been squandered on the useless fitness park so it can obviously be spent on something else. Perhaps you should prove that reallocation is impossible.
Ben…
The biggest social ill confronting our nation and the world is the job losses from COVID-19. WestJet told 1,700 pilots yesterday that they are being laid off for 18-24 months and to prepare their families for the worst.
Do we just ignore people like these or push ahead regardless with “feel good” discretionary projects which benefit very few? The world has just gone through a profound change that has sadly touched so many with unexpected hardship and a very bleak future.
Municipal governments are no exception when it comes to realizing that our economy is on life support. I have faith that our Deputy Mayor will respond with a revised 2020 budget that is appropriate to the financial upheaval and uncertainty that so many taxpayers are encountering.
” I have faith that our Deputy Mayor will respond with a revised 2020 budget that is appropriate to the financial upheaval and uncertainty that so many taxpayers are encountering.”
Don’t bet on it what this municipality needs at this time is a plan to run at a skeleton level and then add in the frills. After all we have to cut 10% out of the budget and to do that we have to gore a lot of oxen. And we all have ideas of what they are.
Ben.
The budget is the CAO’s responsibility, not the DM’s. Council’s responsibility is to provide oversight. Mr Davey, has indicated that he will present a review of the town’s financial state to Council in May 2020.
Ken … Do me a favour and read my post again. Discribing it as a “vanity project” has no foundation, a qualification that lends no rationale to the discussion of the Project. You do an incredible and praise worthy job with the Cobourg and District Historical Society Newsletter and we’ve had several shall I say “interesting” conversations. I respect you which is not to say I understand you. Anything that involves taxpayer money you seem to be against. When you speak for your taxpayer group everyone knows what’s coming.
Keith, you mentioned that local contractors had pledged $20,000 to build your senior fitness centre and that you expect to raise $125,000 more from private donors. Have you considered that the $145,000 would be far more beneficial to our community if contributed to a food bank or other worthwhile recipient rather than creating an eyesore in a Cobourg park?
Ken, you are right, don’t waste money on the few but let it benefit the many.
Kind of like spending taxpayer money on sanitary sewers in Pebble Beach subdivision.
Let the user pay
Leweez, there are no sanitary sewers in the Pebble Beach area.
Exactly
Good thought
Apologies … In the above I meant private sources for a major part of the funding, not public!
It there was 20 projects to be completed by the Town then this fitness park would be 21st on the list
Keith after reading your ideas down to the last word it brought to mind the song “The Big Rock Candy Mountain”. I knew a family well with 11 children raised in public housing. A working poor family. All but one made a success of themselves – OSAP is available for post secondary. The one decided to live off public largess, a truly selected living refusing work. There will always be some that go that route. Opportunity is there if you look for it in a Capitalist society.
Observer … There are always exceptions which include those who succeed dispite the system and those who abuse the system and remain trapped in it, but in my experience both are an exception. In Toronto there is a mens’ wear store who dress up low income individuals applying for a job. Triples the success rate.
In a Head Start type program initiated by President Lyndon Johnson, 30 women head of single parent families in poverty, who were over 30 years old and did not have a secondary school education were enabled to go on to university. The majority did very well, went on to lead what we would call successful and totally independent lives. There’s no majic here only common sense and freedom from prejudice.
You should have observed me for a few years. You would have seen a single parent who worked her way off social assistance and ended up earning a decent income in a public service agency I played a large part in creating.
The sweet part is that over the years this agency has helped thousands of disadvantaged residents in Northumberland to achieve their potential and learn the skills to solve their own problems. I’m proud of them, and proud of what a few of us were able to do for our neighbours.
Good for you Deborah! Ran a halfway house for former correctional service inmates from all levels, to house of first release. Live in for a couple of years. There were supports for various agencies for them. Some wished to change their lives and others did not. I have never said there should not be assists for people but the main aim is they return to main stream – if they can not unfortunately they have selected how they wish to live. Have seen many successes and many failures. It was volunteer Deborah, my service.
Mine was mostly volunteer for the first 5 years. Then it changed when proper funding from Legal Aid was added to what United Way provided.
” so you figure socialism will be the order of the new day?”
Socialism for whom, the corporate sector that get tax breaks they don’t need, Banks and oil companies come on down?
We already provide a safety net with big bucks, but not as near as tax losses to the economy with these write-offs and the failure to capture offshore bank accounts. We need a new priority using existing money. EI and social transfers to the Provinces, if used to basic a basic income program will be a new way of funding the safety net and providing enough money to the healthcare sector.
Priorities folks – that means changing what has passed for normal these past few years and coincidentally bring us back on topic in this thread.
Hello Ben – To whom are you addressing your remark – you quote my question to another blogger – so who are you addressing to?
Definitely you, as you wrote it, unfortunately the design of the blog does not allow for direct rebuttals. but you wrote it on 13 April 2020 at 12:23 pm.
I was addressing another blogger who suggested it Ben – please read my postings as in no way I suggested it at all. I give you the courtesy of seeing your point before replying – please do that for me before accusing me of of a point of view I do not hold.
The Toronto Disaster Relief Committee folded 8 years ago. No wonder we haven’t heard much from them recently. It appears their purpose was to alleviate homelessness, not fix the economy.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/06/08/toronto_disaster_relief_committee_folds_after_14_
years_of_spotlighting_homeless.html
Well thank you Deborah – must have misread at the time. Good thing it closed – homelessness has so many advocators now – it would be nice to see the money placed directly to homeless assists. Such as creation and encouragement of housing for people that qualify – so many have lost their homes over the years through job loss or being people at the bottom of the pile and so little housing at lower cost available.
Will keep happening unless people go vegan. All these damn viruses originate from peoples desire to eat dead animals. We don’t need to do it anymore. The vegan stuff tastes just as good, and even if it didn’t, is a tasty feeling in your mouth more important than an animals life? Farmed animals take up more arable land than it take to feed everyone a vegan diet. This would in turn create substantially more habitat for wildlife, trees, etc. Whatever ridiculous argument people want to come on here and say against this can be easily refuted. We’re omnivores? Yeah, we had to be back in the day to survive, don’t need to be anymore. You don’t need to eat murdered tortured animals and their secretions anymore.
Vegan, you have a point about treatment of animals. Growing of mass produced vegetables also has its issues, such as treatment of workers and the land. How about the destruction of biodiversity provided by natural forests to grow single species palm plantations for food oil? Or travelling truckloads of bees to pollinate almond and fruit orchards and other crops? And, heard in passing … passing by the radio with CBC news on … major loans to developing countries were made with stipulation those countries privatize major public assets like public utilities and infrastructure that provide clean water to local communities. Now that there is a world wide pandemic these citizens who already had a shortage of affordable clean water have even less access, but the area avocado farmers have plenty of water to grow the fruit lots of us in other countries like to eat. Avocados … the new blood diamonds?
The raising of livestock is more intensive on land than growing than growing fruits and vegetables. 80% of agricultural land is used to feed livestock, not humans. Of that 80%, the human population only gets 20% of its calories from that source.
https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets
I always get carrots and celery with my dusted wings🙂
When will this end ?? — I believe was the question
When we are positioned where the Governments want us . The population has been reduced
and the air has cleared and Global warming has slowed .
Financially we will all be worse off unless we were in Govt. or medical service employment
Seniors and those soon to retire / now out of work .- have saved for decades and invested for their retirements
whats left to retire on now . Real estate equities will have diminished one way or the other & if you were in the Markets or Mutual funds well ??? they say we might start to see those investments come back in 3 or 4 yrs . if we are still alive and can afford to be . May be the County can refund some of the $100 Million they want to spend on the Taj Mahal or was that the Golden Plough – Hall Back to the Towns and tax payers so our taxes don’t go through the rough after this is over Affordability and cut backs will be the real game
Its going to be a New World and way of Life .
Hang on
Let’s not ahead of ourselves John, we have to define “normal” before we decide to return to it!
These words were uttered in the House of Commons and they should be considered by all of us – even if we want to reject them:
“I hear a lot of people talking about “when will things return to normal?”
But I believe we need to do far better than normal.
Normal is workers not having paid sick leave.
Normal is families struggling on a minimum wage.
Normal is people who are essential to our health and safety not getting paid enough to live.
Normal is a public health care system that has been starved of funding.
Normal is a society that is neither fair nor resilient.
We can’t ever go back to normal.”
Consider these words in the light of fact. Doug Ford cut the number of paid sick leave days, refused to raise the minimum wage and a host of other moves that make it harder to make the bottom end of the labour market perform as well as they could.
In fact if you support these moves don’t ever have the nerve to pay tribute to them for doing the dirty work that is necessary in these trying times.
Just my opinion John!
Doug Ford cut sick days?? I recall the City of Toronto negotiated. They cut sick days from banked 1 1/2 days per month to 26 weeks for senior employees coupled with 6 weeks vacation time, 3 weeks lieu time, 2 floating holidays and pay out of sick bank which amounted to 6 months for senior employees with generous plans for the less senior. Each January you must attend 2 weeks should you have exhausted the many weeks of sick time and your sick bank will be fully renewed which I have seen many an employee do after being “sick” for the duration of their sick time. My friend in private industry received sick days for the first time ever after having none after legislation was passed.
So, I guess the lesson your “friend” learned is that, he\she should apply for a government job?
No she got laid off after 34 years and now finds due to it being labeled a voluntary retirement package and quit voluntarily despite layoffs and people being asked to use vacation to make up a full week that she is denied any E.I. at 63! The company could only survive one year after the $14. minimum came in but are doing much better today after being declared estential service being food industry – just before due to requiring to raise their contract prices they lost most of their contracts. The grocery stores being bought out to beat the band saved their bacon for now.
Sounds like she might have gotten some poor advice
She should have consulted an employment lawyer but time was short and with the shortage of work and her trust in the company she signed realizing the company was in dire straights at that time and offered the advice by them this is a one time offer – if you don’t take it you will get nothing.
I heard of another that had two jobs – the second one day a week from which they were laid off. They filed for E.I. for that job which they are allowed to do when holding two jobs. It was due to COVID-19 the lay off – they received $2000 despite the fact it was a one day a week job only and they still have the other full time job.
Observer … With regard to any abuse of the Canadian Emergency Response Benefit, CERB, anyone who simply applies will get the 2,000 every four weeks, right away, no further questions asked. Any abuse will be corrected at tax time next year. In the meantime people will spend the money and stimulate the economy “from the bottom up”. If I was still working I’d apply and use the funds to help out those I know who need it. The Federal Government got it right.
Hello Keith – the problem is a lot of people don’t understand the wage loss program. As a person who administered payroll I would have been immediately on the phone saying I think you paid me too much. They said mistakes would and are being made. Also recall applying for a CRA job once. I was surprised and disappointed there were no questions on taxation – it was a mental artithmetic test Keith. Also it didn’t help the two people administering the test talked to each other all the way through, I had sat at the front near them – certainly interfered with my concentration! So in the end they got people good at mental arithmetic – how about a good understanding of taxes to start – not so much! The person expected compensation for the lost one day a week job which is possible if you hold 2 jobs not the CERB – they automatically put it over to CERB if it is COVID-19 related but the administrators don’t seem to differentiate between a regular claim and CERB.
” My friend in private industry received sick days for the first time ever after having none after legislation was passed.”
And how does he feel after Dugg annihilated that legislation?
Hmm Ben – the company was still paying them for the first time ever and continued to do so. However I know another in company commercial driving – they never got them over the years so it had nothing to do with Doug Ford and when Family Day was legislated the company decided not to recognize it so just didn’t pay it along with overtime – there are some loop holes there. With so much going broker the drivers were afraid to and the trucks were maintained unlike other companies that still had their own trucks. The City still gets a great sick plan – what companies are you referring to that Doug Ford annililiated sick days from?
All the Companies in Ontario
October 23 2018:
Doug Ford’s government announced Tuesday it is tabling sweeping legislation to gut Ontario’s labour laws.
At a press conference Tuesday in Scarborough, Labour Minister Laurie Scott announced Ford’s government is officially moving forward with omnibus legislation repealing Bill 148, the “fair workplaces and better jobs act” which modernized the province’s outdated labour laws and included protections for vulnerable workers.
Under the Ford government’s proposed legislation, workers will lose paid sick days, labour laws will be gutted to restore exploitative practices and make it harder for workers to unionize, and to top it all off, Ford’s government is planning to cancel the $15 minimum wage increase set for January 1 – a move that will cost low-wage workers nearly $2,000 per year.
Passed into legislation Bill 47 – November 2018
What is the source you are quoting? Sounds like an opinion piece.
Not opinion Paul simple fact, this bill 47 implemented all of the changes referenced above. It only took a Google search to reveal many articles from all over the mainstream media all reporting the facts and issues surrounding Bill 47. I chose this piece which came from PressProgress and the url for a longer piece explaining all of the implications of Bill 47 https://pressprogress.ca/doug-ford-is-gutting-labour-laws-eliminating-sick-days-and-cancelling-raises-for-minimum-wage-workers/ for its comprehensiveness. You may decide to write this piece off because you consider it to be an opinion that conflicts with yours, but as an openminded person I know that you will not do that!!
I prefer to read the unspun version. That is the actual legislation before the pundits and critics bombard us with their own views and political biases. It’s more time consuming to read but I prefer to draw my own conclusions rather than rely on somebody else’s.
There is factual reporting and there is opinion. What you quoted I don’t consider as factual but the views of a scribe who detests the Ford government.
And your statement, sir, is just opinion. So much hot air.
Any quote that uses pejorative phrases such as “labour laws will be gutted to restore exploitative practices” is not to be trusted. There are numerous untrustworthy reporters in the mainstream media so the source doesn’t guarantee veracity
Oh, and how would the Fraser Institute phrase it?
Well Ben – $14. an hour put my friends’ business in severe jeopardy – it was due to legislation by the Conservative government that provided sick and ill dependent days to be paid – unlike before when they had none. The paid sick plans of government unionized labour guaranteed up to 6 full months of sick time for senior workers – starting at 10 years your sick days could be banked to 3 full months – it increased to 6 months for senior employees and was paid out at 50% value when an employee retired or quit as you like to RRSP or direct with lump sum tax. The $15. was due this past January or perhaps 2019 instead the Ford government said anyone at minumum wage would not be subject to provincial tax only Federal which has not been reduced. Oh to be a government employee!!! I was impressed with the wages and benefits I had when employed there for many years – head and shoulders above private Ben.
Observer said,
Well Ben – $14. an hour put my friends’ business in severe jeopardy – it was due to legislation by the Conservative government that provided sick and ill dependent days to be paid – unlike before when they had none.
I would put it to you that this business, if it failed because of a hike in wage costs, would have failed anyway due to all the other factors involved in running a business.
Too many businesses run close to the wind and when it finally becomes obvious that they are insolvent, they tend to blame the most convenient – taxes, wages, rent. Pity but perhaps they should have realised that maybe they should not be in business!
They are still in business Ben, recently purchasing super machines to replace the laid off workers that do the work of many. With the sudden increase to overhead from $11. to $14. they also raised their prices that caused them to lose contracts. Then the virus came to Canada. Supermarkets couldn’t keep the shelves stocked so their business suddenly increased – they are food processers. Their bacon is saved – for now Ben but they still only have one shift and many fewer workers they aren’t what they were. The knew this as their daughter survived the lay off.
Easy to say Ben, but many businesses have competitors based in lower wage locations. These cannot raise prices so raising the minimum wage only serves to create unemployment and welfare dependence. Only government has no competition! Think what will happen with a guaranteed minimum income. Who will work for minimum wage unless the guaranteed income is much less?
With a guaranteed income, where is the incentive to work or to improve one’s education or skills?
We need to stop this insane promotion of a nanny state. Socialism is a great way to destroy freedom and a strong work ethic.
“We need to stop this insane promotion of a nanny state. Socialism is a great way to destroy freedom and a strong work ethic.”
And how has neo-liberalism led us to a better place, Canuck Patriot? Globalism and its ills have led us to the greatest inequality of wealth in our history!
How is “globalism” relevant to abhorring socialism? Why is an incentive to excel bad?
I don’t say this to denigrate the ambition or the work ethic of the business owner. But if the business plans are predicated on such thin margins then their optimism will never carry them into the profitable years.
In fact Ken raising the minimum wage has never led to job losses and many studies confirm this, the only ones that don’t agree are the studies from the Fraser Institute and the papers by Dr Jack Mintz.
As to the question of slackers in the population that will refuse to work if a basic income is legislated, again we have studies to disprove this fact. There will always be people who rip off the systems be it EI or tax dodgers or even people who stash income offshore. But in the big picture Society, if it wants to be complete and whole and fulfills all of its constituents health, we have to accept that fact for the common good.
Ben – you’ld better tell that to all the people in the restaurant business that closed out when minimum wage came in along with many other businesses. Although I do wonder when I saw a woman on the news who said she’ld been in business 20 years and the first month she couldn’t meet the rent for her business.
Sources, Observer not anecdotes!
Pardon Ben – where are all your links? Then again I am confused about what you are saying – India – proved slave labour in production, China – my boss was amazed that the wood imported was so much cheaper then Canadian product despite international shipping. NAFTA has had a great role in the decimation of Ontario manufacturing. Do you want links on this Ben – it has been widely reported the cheap labour we contend with.
Ben, I don’t know your background but you appear to be misinformed regarding the realities of business. Few companies can raise their prices to compensate for increases in wages. Most profitable companies operate on small margins that are greatly influenced by expenses such as wages, rent and taxes. To think that we can raise wages without reducing profits is ridiculous and Canada’s prosperity depends on profitable companies.
You imply that only “slackers” would accept a guaranteed income rather than working at a minimum wage job that is boring and possibly even dangerous while having to pay for transportation and child care expenses yet receive the same net income. I believe that you seriously underestimate the intelligence of our lowest paid workers.
Ken you should improve your comprehension skills or read my posts through a different lens.
my post
“As to the question of slackers in the population that will refuse to work if a basic income is legislated, again we have studies to disprove this fact.”
your answer:
“You imply that only “slackers” would accept a guaranteed income rather than working at a minimum wage job”
Where is the implication you suggest, in my remarks?
In fact studies have proved (Manitoba 1970s, Lindsay 2016) that the number of ‘grifters’ goes down when people are free to choose an occupation, because of a modicum of financial security, instead of being forced into the ‘drudge’ work that you extol.
Ben, you ignored my comments about business profitability. Does that mean that you agree?
The impact of a guaranteed income depends on the rules and the amounts. Using the Lindsay model that you mentioned, a family with two adults earning minimum wage would receive nothing due to the 50% clawback. So of course no impact. A family with one adult earning minimum wage would receive about $2200/year after clawback which is equivalent to raising the minimum wage to $15/hour. The Lindsay scheme has almost no impact either good or bad; it is ridiculous to consider it a proof of anything.
Be safe & thank you for your Blogs
John, While you provide a valid opinion and it may well go that way for the most. I, on the other hand differ in my opinions. For me, if the economy doesn’t start in a reasonable robust fashion within the next month, the financial fallout could well trigger a depression (30% unemployment). If that occurs, we will have much more than a virus that will destroy so many more lives.
As an aexample, It would be financial suicide for many churches, theatres, centres, and organized sports programs to cease operations until a vaccine is found and used. Bars and restaurants and other small shops also can’t survive on 50% capacity for long.
Instead, I see once this first wave flattens, we should put money into protecting our aged and vulnerable populations. While the balance practice socail distancing as much as possible BUT get back to work (at home where possible). Understanding that we will have cases to contend with but not to the extent of the first wave.
Airlines and other international travel methods are also economically very vulnerable at the moment. Those industries are extremely important in the day to day requirements of the world. They would never last to the new year, if they can’t open and/or are required to fly at 50% capacity.
These are some of my thoughts. I am male 61 years old and I understand that this virus, vaccine or not, will most likely be with us for the forceable future. Therefore, we can’t let it dictate everone’s livelihood. I give full respect to it but I can’t fear it.
I completely agree with New Cobourg.
In our efforts to save ourselves, we must be careful that we don’t end up killing ourselves.
Before you start to advocate for help to the Airlines just ask them why they spent all their available cash, the staggering sum of 96 Billion, which would have enabled them to ride out this crisis, on ‘share buybacks’?
If they need cash to pay the passengers back their ‘stolen refunds’ or to pay the CEOs bonuses then they should take a loan using the planes and infrastructure as collateral.
Our MPP must begin the process of acquiring as much PPE as possible, building a robust reserve supply and maintaining that level. Our MP must begin to encourage divestment from Chinese companies that have sold faulty equipment to many Western nations, and to encourage our own production or amend the USMCA to include equitable distribution of product. Big Pharma is in the wrong hands when it is in China’s hands.
Why should politicians be responsible for medical supply purchases? What are all those hospital executives on the Sunshine List being paid for if not that?
Politicians aren’t supposed to predict pandemics and outbreaks and plan accordingly. We have plenty of amply-endowed bureaucrats for that.
All PPE should be going though the Federal government procurement centre, that way there to be stock on hand , and it will get safely distribute and rotated, so the PPE does not expire
We do not want masks that the elastics are dried up.
Many Western countries received price-gouged faulty medical equipment from China. Canada’s health officials have done nothing more than parrot and obey the instructions of the World Health Organization that, in turn, parrots and obeys the instructions of the Communist Party of China. Our upper bureaucraps and politicos failed us, and they continue to do so.
Our amply-endowed bureaucraps did no such thing. They neither predicted it nor . accordingly. They demonstrated lethal incompetence. They demonstrated their obedience to the corrupt World Health Organization (bureaucraps all) that in turn deceived the planet for political reasons. That is the lethal result of bureacraps making political decisions. Bureaucraps are there to be consulted rigorously by politicians so that competent decisions are made. Politicians instruct bureaucraps what they are permitted to do concerning imports. “Hospital executives on the Sunshine List” are unlikely to know anything about international importation arrangements.
Canada needs to divest from China for national health and security. Get on it bureaucraps. What? You can’t do it without clear instructions from the political class? Hmmm. Seems that the bureaucrazy follows the policies set forth by politicos.
Here’s a good truthful read re the Chinese influence – http://www.nationalcitizens.ca/fernando_a_question_of_loyalty_canada_ccp?utm_campaign=fernandoapr13china&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nationalcitizens
Makes sense, but the reality is that the politicians control the purse strings, so keeping big bucks invested in PPE “just in case” in a tough call for the hospital admins when operating funds are always in short supply.
Apparently Trudeau just allowed the Chinese to take over ITF Technologies of Montreal, a company involved with laser tech and national security concerns. This guy has to go!
Waited in a long line early on a cold morning at the grocery store. Once inside we were very careful to keep a distance between us. But we all opened those refrigerated case doors to select juice, eggs, butter, frozen meats, fish and pizzas. Each of us grabbed those steel handles and any of us with a virus left a sample behind for those who opened it next, who then transferred them to their face as soon as they touched it.
Doesn’t make a lot of sense, somehow.
A face mask would help mitigate the facial touching. And I carry hand sanitizer to use the moment I come out of the store.
Yeah, me too. I carry a cloth soaked in homemade sanitizer in a baggie and use it to open doors etc. and to wipe my hands in the checkout line.
Can only help.
(I think those stores should hire someone to walk up and down constantly wiping those handles with disinfectant of some kind, if only as a form of virtue-signalling).
Are you going pay extra to have that employee open the door for you .
Hire someone to virtue-signal? What a waste!
Studies show that most untrained people wearing masks still continue to touch their faces/masks. Just as most untrained people who don gloves cross contaminate.
And don’t waste a N95 mask if you have even a light beard. Save those masks for the people who really need them. A bandana will do just as good for you hairy guys.
Google “N95 mask facial hair” and take your pick of hits.
Wear rubber gloves when you are outside your own house regardless of where you go.or what you’re doing.
try The Market & Smør. http://Www.themarketsmor.com.
Ever see people texting or checking their phone while in grocery store?How many disinfect phone after leaving grocery store? See it all the time.
Why would they, if no one else touched that phone while they were there?
Think of what you just said
Before I sign off for the weekend – a happy Easter to all. Tomorrow Easter, a nice meal and phone calls to dear friends and loved ones.
Another word – out in our vehicle, enclosed within, no Timmy’s stop – drove along residential streets we drive along all the time – familiar with them. This time though there were cars parked out front, driveways with 4 cars sharing the pavement and cars out front. Strange each of those places certainly doesn’t have the cars around it normally. Wonder if they are having company if they are wearing masks, except at supper. Hopefully the chairs are well spaced.
I think there is room for more serious attention by the general populace and precautions should be strengthened.
We are all supposed to stay home unless travelling for essential needs. Definitely not to visit friends/family, Easter or not. Why were you out driving?
One of the posted things that we “can do” in Cobourg is to go for a scenic drive or a bike ride.
Before the day starts – went for a drive. Did not visit anyone Deborah – did not get out of the car Deborah, did not stop for anything, did not visit anyone as it states in my post Deborah.
I love seeing the abundance of people riding their bicycles, many bicycles with “attachments“ for youth, now that there are fewer cars and much less air pollution…
If the PM can visit his family in violation and to another province as well ,what message does that send to the public ?
Do as I say, not as I do ?
Why don’t you whine about something important!
Bill, the visit was consistent with Justin’s usual judgement and leadership skills.
Have to admit I have never quite understood “Happy Easter”.
It always comes across to me as “Happy Crucifiction”.
Just an observation on my part. No offence intended to anyone.
Please forgive me for having a more positive view.
There are some interesting stories , such as the canals in Venice are now clear enough to see the fishes, https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/photos-water-in-venice-italys-canals-clear-amid-covid-19-lockdown.html . Another is that the Himalayan mountains can now be seen from hundreds of kilometres away due to clearer air, https://apple.news/AKgThwhAkT8-C8g5QPzRx7Q.
I think these are some examples of a better world that we can create, if we do not revert to business as usual.
A website reports that the rate of Covid 19 deaths per million of population in Canada is just one quarter the the rate for the USA , and one ninth of the rate for the UK. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/ This might not be perfect, but it does indicate Canadian efforts are working, and that we may survive the crisis in a better shape than other major nations.
Our populaton numbers reflects a lower infection numbers. New York state – 10,000 in just one area, not the whole state – New York City wow and burying them in mass graves! I have head the U.S. numbers are higher than Chinas. Sorry I’m not in to links was advised not to use them as they may lead to infected sites. Canada has a much lower population than any of those countries. Fewer people, less crowding, fewer to control.
I think that’s exactly the whole point. “Nature” designed these things to keep flocks of birds and bats under control. Once a population reaches a critical mass and degree of crowding, the virus can spread like you-know-what and kill off enough of the weaker and undernourished members to bring it all back into balance.
As seen from the comfort of here in my armchair, at least.
Looking at the address in link , will usually tell you if they are trusted site
If you are on Cogeco that have a program that will capture infected sites
Being able to see the fish in the canals of Venice is certainly better than seeing friends and family at Easter. To be able to see the Himalayan mountains from a distance gives me hope for our future prosperity.
Greg H. The planet would be better off without humans, that what your examples show. We are the real virus here. The checks and balances that mother nature has are on display right now. We are highly evolved and technologically advanced but the planet still has it’s old tricks. Of course we will ultimately defeat this and begin destroying our planet again but this has to be a huge wakeup call. The planet is fighting back trying to get rid of us humans who are destroying its balance.
“…robins will wear their feathery fire
Whistling their whims on a low fence-wire;
And not one will know of the war, not one
Will care at last when it is done.
Not one would mind, neither bird nor tree
If mankind perished utterly;
And Spring herself, when she woke at dawn,
Would scarcely know that we were gone.”
Sara Teasdale [1884 – 1933]
JimT thank you for sharing that beautiful poem.
Donna
The canals in Venice are clearing due to lack of boat traffic disturbing the mud on the bottom of the canal. Venice can not exist without boat transportation.
There nothing to be positive about. Many will go bankrupt and many more will die.
Perhaps study what nations have done that have successfully flattend the curve. It would be nice if all people took the spread of the virus with great seriousness. In watching CHEX News it was reported that a music festival is planned for the Peterborough area – doesn’t seem like a very good idea. Apparently more drastic measures are required.
I fear that your predictions are far too optimistic unless a “miracle” treatment is found. Even then it will take months before there is sufficient supply of the drug to treat all who become ill. Most expert predictions that I’ve seen doubt that a vaccine will be developed before early 2021. It will take many months after initial trials before it is available in quantity and most are vaccinated.
There is ample online evidence that even with incessant TV commercials and exhortations by our politicians many do not yet understand the importance of social distancing. For example, we are disregarding the experts and still running public transit. You wrote “no house parties” so why open restaurants if you cannot dine with friends?
Yes, children appear to be far less susceptible to severe outcomes than adults but I’ve seen nothing to indicate that they cannot be carriers. If children can be carriers or even if their clothing can carry the virus then allowing a reopening of schools prior to a vaccine would be disastrous. Perhaps the teachers will drop their opposition to eLearning! Compared to other measures keeping schools closed has little economic impact.
These are not comforting thoughts for a holiday weekend. Please tell me why I’m wrong!
“…WHO estimated that seasonal influenza was associated with a total of 250,000 to 500,000 deaths from all causes annually”
“…US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)…estimated that influenza is associated with 290,000 to 650,000 deaths from respiratory causes alone.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6815659/
“Confirmed (covid-19) infections have reached about 1.7 million worldwide, including more than 100,000 deaths…” CBC April 11 2020. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/coronavirus-covid19-april11-canada-world-1.5529719
This is madness. Ultimate mass hysteria in action.
All because a percentage of the world population naively lets its vitamin D levels decline to catastrophic levels in the winter months (aka “flu season”).
“…following priming by exposure to the activator immune system molecules, the T cells began to produce far more phospholipase C-γ1. For this to occur, the T cells needed to be in the presence of vitamin D and the vitamin D receptor. They also found that naive T cells did not produce the vitamin D receptors, and that these receptors were only produced when the T cells were primed…”
https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/vitamin-d-immune-system-boost/
My grand girl has plenty of school work to do, sent to her dad’s home computer and to be returned to her teacher when completed. She attends St. Anthony’s elementary school in Port Hope and is happy to have work to do. I’m going to get her a laptop to use, she’s almost 12 and will need it. I suspect this isn’t the only school where teachers are hard at work for their students. We shall see how well E-learning works, but not by choice. I worry about kids who have no computer at home, families in poverty who can’t afford the computer, never mind the monthly internet charges. With libraries closed, what will these kids do?
Unfortunately not many teachers know how to use the technology available in order to teach on line.
A silver lining Deborah – the Child Care benefit has been increased by $300 per child. Some school boards are providing various computer equipment for children for e-leaning absolutely free.
Ken – FYI – Transit is necessary for those essential workers who do not have the luxury of a car to get to work… and we need those brave folks who make the trek every day so we can get our groceries, health care etc.
Of course essential workers must get to work but how many essential workers have no car and must use the bus to get to work? Council never even asked the question. Many essential workers perform shift work yet the bus only runs during the day. Council never asked how they would be affected. Judging from the number who use the bus it would be safer (and maybe even cheaper) to lease a car for each essential worker. Council never considered that option. I can walk to most anywhere on the bus route in an hour or so; the bus runs once per hour. Council never considered where the essential workers needed to travel and whether walking was a healthier option.