Police Responding to Public Concerns about Demonstrators

Cobourg Police seem to now be responding to complaints from the Public about demonstrators not following the same rules as everyone else.  At a Press conference today (see video below), Chief Paul VandeGraaf, Police Board Chair and Mayor John Henderson re-iterated that they are now enforcing the rules.  Last Saturday, seven offenders got tickets and two got Court summons for obstructing Police.  When asked why now and not earlier, Chief VandeGraaf said that it was his decision. Police attempts to educate were being ignored and people were refusing to comply.  He said their behaviour was bordering on criminal. Mayor Henderson commented that he had received a large number of calls wanting enforcement and he communicated that to the Chief.  It probably helps that Pete Fisher’s video makes good evidence for the Police case.

Specifics

Last Saturday, 10 April, officers responded to a gathering taking place in front of Victoria Hall. Upon arrival, police estimated between twenty-five and thirty individuals were gathered. Officers spoke with the group, requesting they disperse and comply with the current Stay-At-Home order.

As a result, seven Provincial Offences Notices [Tickets] were issued for Fail to Comply with an order made during a declared emergency Contrary to Section 7.0.11(1) of the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act.

Additionally, two individuals were issued Provincial Summons [Means they must appear in Court] for the Offence of Obstruct any person exercising a power in accordance with an order made during a declared emergency Contrary to Section 7.0.00(1)

Police are currently looking to identify three people who attended the gathering on Saturday who would not identify themselves. These people will be given tickets as well.

Comment by Chief

“We have provided notice to the community that we would be enforcing the Stay-at-Home Order and ticketing accordingly. The expectations have been made clear, and this community group continues to gather in spite of our efforts,” says Chief Paul VandeGraaf, Cobourg Police Service. “This past weekend, despite being treated with disrespect and having derogatory slurs hurled at them, from some individuals of the group, my officers and Town Bylaw remained calm and professional. I remain committed to working with our community and local partners to continue to promote compliance.”

The Police are working with Prosecutors and will use Pete Fisher’s Video as evidence (see below).

Although I’m reluctant to publicize people pushing lies, if you don’t know already, these people were not wearing masks and were demonstrating against their use plus any efforts to combat the virus.

Rob Washburn asked whether Police were concerned that prosecuting would make the demonstrators martyrs but Chief VandeGraaf said that he can’t make decisions based on concerns that “people may be using us” or a world of “what ifs”.  He also said that because extra resources were deployed, no other calls for Police services went unanswered.  He plans extra resources for the coming weekend but is hopeful Police actions will deter the people not following direction.

To underline the seriousness of our situation, Mayor Henderson said that if we were currently using the zone system, we would now be in the red zone instead of yellow.

The Chief made it clear that he was not expressing an opinion on Provincial rules nor was he stopping free speech – instead he was enforcing rules that the demonstrators were breaking.  To me it’s really quite simple: the stay-at-home order allows for exceptions but these do not include gathering in groups to demonstrate.  Previous restrictions, no doubt still in force, limited groups to 5 or less.

You can get more detail on what was said from the Press Conference Video below.

See also update below for Saturday 17 April

Video of Event on April 10 – by Pete Fisher of Today’s Northumberland.

Press Conference Video – By Cobourg Police

Links

Report on similar event on April 3 – 3 April 2021

Update – Saturday 17 April – posted 5:30 pm

Police Announcement

Gathering in the Town of Cobourg leads to charges

The Cobourg Police Service issued four tickets as a result of a gathering in the Town of Cobourg in violation of the current provincewide Stay-At-Home-Order. In addition, police identified two individuals from a gathering held last weekend who will be charged.

On the afternoon of Saturday, April 17, 2021, police attended Victoria Hall located at 55 King Street West in Cobourg in response to a gathering taking place in violation of the current Stay-At-Home Order.

Police estimated there were approximately 30 individuals gathered in a group and walking along the street.

Recent changes to the current Stay-At-Home order prohibit all outdoor gatherings, except for with members of the same household or one other person from outside that household who lives alone.

Officers spoke with the group, engaging with the group to ensure understanding of the recent changes and clarity that those who chose not to comply would be charged accordingly. Interactions between the group and the police were respectful.

As a result, four people were charged with Fail to comply with an order made during a declared emergency, contrary to section 7.0.11(1) of the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act.

The Cobourg Police Service supports all measures necessary to limit the spread of COVID-19 and variants in our community and will continue to work with local public health, municipal and regional officials to ensure compliance. Cobourg Police will continue to be proactive and complaint-driven in our response to the increased measures. While provincial offences officers, including police officers, have enforcement rights under the new EMCPA order, we will continue to focus on the 4 Es – Engage, Explain, Educate, and Enforce. Those that refuse to comply will receive the appropriate penalty.

Editor’s Note.

See also Police statement re not randomly stopping people to check why they are away from home.  Go here. (Halfway down grey box).

 

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Wally Keeler
19 April 2021 11:14 am

LEVY: Three prominent docs call lockdowns a waste of time | Toronto Sun
But in a lengthy Zoom interview this past week, Paul Elias Alexander, Howard Tenenbaum and Harvey Risch — all PhDs working out of prominent universities — told me flat-out that lockdowns are a complete waste of time.

Rob
17 April 2021 9:46 am

The new police powers must make many contributors very happy .. indiscriminate stops, inquiries as to why you are out and where you live. Yes this feel good and right doesn’t it. This doesn’t feel over the top, like our rights are being eroded. Interprovincial “check points” (Charlie) prohibiting travel within our free democratic country seems likes a good idea. Out for a walk with a friend or neighbour – not any more, now literally illegal. Wally you pined and whined about your experiences with the RCMP well apply that to the population of Ontario as it is now illegal to walk on the street with anyone who doesn’t live with you….$750.

Bryan
Reply to  Rob
17 April 2021 10:22 am

Rob:
And we slide further down the slippery slope as the Ontario Government tramples our charter rights to mobility and freedom from illegal police identification requests.
There is no indication that the provincial government has obtained Charter exemptions for these new laws.
The government has not presented any SCIENCE (not garbage in, garbage out computer models and statistical projections) to support its decision to enact these new laws.
The provincial government is pushing us ever closer to the tipping point, when Ontarioans say enough is enough.

Liz
Reply to  Rob
17 April 2021 12:42 pm

Rob – in the Toronto Sun today – you will be glad to know – Police Chiefs are refusing this new duty. Here in Cobourg getting a COVID shot is akin to winning the lottery. Little option for the responsible but to hunker down as the irresponsible will be out and about spreading the virus without concern for anyone but themselves – the norm so far.

Bryan
Reply to  Liz
17 April 2021 1:52 pm

Liz:
you wrote:”…. the irresponsible will be out and about spreading the virus…”
How do you know they will be spreading the virus?
To do so they would have to be infected.
Have they been tested and found to be infected?
By whom?
When?
How do you know this?

Liz
Reply to  Bryan
17 April 2021 2:38 pm

Bryan only a fool would think the irresponsible or thoughtless have not out and about. There are many who do not take the pandemic seriously. Are you one?Where have you been? This past year news coverage has shown us large gatherings of people, unmasked at car rallies, beaches, parks, weddings and other private social gatherings. After designated holidays in this country the COVID rate spikes. Do you really think these gatherings do not spread the virus? There has been continued testing throughout it all and you’ll probably say it is a coincidence that many of these people attending such events now have the virus and there is the trace element to trace a person’s activities which shows where they have been to enable notification to others.

Bryan
Reply to  Liz
17 April 2021 4:02 pm

Liz:
You wrote:”  There has been continued testing throughout it all…”
Testing of who, the event participants?
What is your source?

you also wrote: ‘…a coincidence that many of these people attending such events now have the virus…”
They do?
What is your source please?
How are the people attending these “events being tracked and connected to the events?

You also wrote: “… and there is the trace element to trace a person’s activities which shows where they have been to enable notification to others…..” Really ..a trace element!!. Like invisible dye or a radioactive isotope
How is the trace element tagged on people at an event?
Who is doing the tagging?
How is the trace element detected for follow-up?
Who does the follow-up?

At 3:30pm today Global News and other media reported that Doug Ford is backing down on his new “laws” they are now under “review”

After the Ontario government announced Friday they were giving police the power to randomly stop pedestrians and motorists on the streets, multiple police services have come forward saying they will not be making use of these new powers.

https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/many-ontario-police-services-refuse-to-enforce-ford-governments-new-random-stop-laws

Perhaps the tipping point has been reached.

Last edited 22 days ago by Bryan
Liz
Reply to  Bryan
17 April 2021 5:57 pm

Surely you read the newspapers and public health updates Bryan – that is where you will find the information as if you didn’t know.

Doug Ford may back down with the likes of Andrea Horvath – the failed NDP candidate, party decimated so far that it was publized the NDP are thinking of replacing her. Small business, school board – close the schools open the schools, back and forth. Open up they say, open up – the BBQ man serving hundreds with no masks and no safety precautions, great numbers gathering in his restaurant, no business license.

The trace element is the phone app – so well known by everyone Bryan – you haven’t heard of it? Toronto Sun – front page – Multiple Chiefs of Police not wishing to take these powers on due to civil liberties screaming about their rights to be out and about, partying and gathering in large groups.

Here in Cobourg the Midtown Vet was closed due to being able to trace a COVID infected person utilizing their business and close for testing to ensure staff were neither infected nor was their virus lingering for spreading on their property.

I have made my points Bryan. All of the tracing elements, testing and results have been posted everywhere for everyone to see. I find your arguments totally illogical and against everything I have seen regarding information on COVID, its spread and prevention.
A link for you with regard to police chiefs refusal of new powers due to the politcally corrrect flack back.
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-many-police-chiefs-say-no-thanks-to-fords-new-covid-random-stop-law

Last edited 22 days ago by Liz
Wally Keeler
Reply to  Rob
17 April 2021 12:53 pm

Wally you pined and whined about your experiences with the RCMP

Excuse me, but I did not even come near to whining. I complained and I took action. Whiners do not do that. I complained to my MP who raised the issue in the House of Commons. The Security Service of the RCMP intercepted my first class private mail, withheld it, published the content and LIED to my MP in a letter about it. Other mail tampering issues came out and a Royal Commission of Inquiry was established. Friends were brought in for questioning about my loyalty to Canada. They went to my landlord and employer advising that they suspected me to be a subversive. I was gifted eviction and job dismissal. They wiretapped my phone without a warrant. I spoke before the Royal Commission. I used the Peoples Republic of Poetry to satirize the situation generating gobs of national publicity. I was aggressive in the pursuit of justice for myself. And you dare to mischaracterize that as whining? Thanks for trivializing.

Peterborough Examiner, April 17, 1973, headline: “185 Cobourg residents sign petition objecting to new anti-loitering by-law.” The proposed by-law read, “No person shall lounge, loaf or loiter or stand as an idler on any sidewalk, street or highway or in any public place so as to obstruct the movemennt of pedestrians, or provoke or endanger the health safety, morality or welfare of inhabitants.” I organized against this bylaw and it was eventually withdrawn. Was that whining?

Liz
15 April 2021 12:39 pm

Saturday looms – we shall we what we shall see. Perhaps the 3 people that ran away after refusing to identify themselves will show up to get their tickets.

marya
14 April 2021 10:48 am

It has been noted that last year’s highly profiled chanters, video-filmed spokespersons and fined people are no longer participants in this year’s protests.

Keith Oliver
13 April 2021 8:33 pm

The issue of freedom is a thorny one, not quite as simple as it might seem at first. Over 4 decades the husband and wife team of Ariel and Will Durant wrote an 11 volume history called The Story of Civilization. In a thin volume called The Lessons of History, they offered what they believe are the principle lessons to be learned. Here’s one.

“Since men love freedom, and the freedom of individuals in society requires some regulation of conduct, the first condition of freedom is its limitation; make it absolute and it dies in chaos.”

We see examples of the truth of this in the ongoing news from our good neighbours to the south, and now in parts of our country. Freedom of religion, the right to bare arms, the freedom of speech, freedom of assembly.

In practice, and subject to review and alteration as circumstances dictate, the Law is such a form of the regulation that the Durant’s refer to.

Last edited 26 days ago by Keith Oliver
Michelle
13 April 2021 2:10 pm

About the Charter, I read an interesting article in The Conversation, written by Caroline Hodes, it explores protesting in these Covid times and the freedom to assemble. “If harm can be proven, limits on freedom can be justified. Where harm is absent, freedom must prevail. The concept of harm, however, is subjective.”
In the end the courts will decide. Not politicians, not the police. In the interim, fingers crossed that the powers that be in this community make decisions based on their subjective opinions that keep us both strong and free. All of us.

Bryan
Reply to  Michelle
17 April 2021 10:34 am

Michelle:
You are correct “.. In the end the courts will decide. Not politicians, not the police….”

You also wrote: “…..the powers that be…make decisions based on their subjective opinions…” This is the dangerous part. They should be making decisions based on evidence: facts and science.

Also, instead of subjecting the population to heavy handed bad laws, the provincial government should obtain Charter exemptions PRIOR to enacting laws such as this. The problem is they are uncertain of the merits and afraid of how it will look to be denied right from the start. Better to bluff it through and hope everything blows over (resolves) before they have to defend their actions in court.

Gerinator
13 April 2021 12:20 pm

Now that the Chief has “decided” (with support from Council) to start issuing fines, etc, it would be handy info to know whether these fines actually get paid. In a prior post the Chief is unaware of whether the fines were being paid as these fines fall outside of the traffic act. Perhaps the Town keeps track of this type of information?

Old Sailor
13 April 2021 11:11 am

A tip of the hat to Chief Paul VandeGraaf and the Cobourg Police Service for professionally enforcing compliance with a law designed to protect the health and safety of Cobourg citizens and visitors to Cobourg. As for the leaders of this dissident belligerent group, perhaps they should be gently placed in handcuffs, gently lifted into “blue boxes”, and put out for Tuesday recycling pickup?

Rob
13 April 2021 10:17 am

Section 2 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the freedom of expression, freedom of association, and the freedom of peaceful assemblyFreedom of peaceful assembly is a recognized right under international human rights law.

Freedom to protest peacefully is a pillar in a free democratic society. Its an expression of ones disagreement when we are not happy with the direction our Government is taking. So when should people protest – only when the Government says its ok to do so? This is a slippery slope friends…of course I would appreciate if they wore masks however they did not.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 10:29 am

Section 1 declares, ” subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.”

Rob
Reply to  Wally Keeler
13 April 2021 10:44 am

Wally – when should one protest their discontent with governmental policy? Should it be only when the government permits it? What if they never permit it? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t support or applaud any radical ideology, including these knuckle heads. However we do need to be mindful that our basic rights have been eroded very significantly in the last 13 months and vaccination passports may lead to even more. These protesters should have been no threat to anyone, since everyone else should have been home – because its literally illegal to leave your residence. Think about that Wally.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 11:26 am

“...literally illegal to leave your residence.”

Not entirely accurate. One can leave their home for groceries, medical appointments, etc. If it’s not raining circa 9-10pm, I go for a ride on my mobility scooter on residential streets for my mental health. I do it without authorization.

I have deliberately broken laws in Canada and other countries. I was never unaware of consequences. Dissidents in the socialist dictatorshits violated state laws and suffered severe penalties. They did not have the opportunity to appeal, whereas the dissidents in front of Vic Hall do. That is a check and balance on our part.

Informed
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 11:29 am

So its illegal for residents to leave their home but its ok to assemble in gatherings of more than 5 because they have rights protected by charter of rights? Im only guessing but the charter probably never counted on a global pandemic killing millions.

Gerald Childs
Reply to  Informed
13 April 2021 12:26 pm

I find it odd that he quotes section two yet ignores section one.

Rob
Reply to  Gerald Childs
13 April 2021 1:05 pm

Good discussion .. imagine if the government chose to prohibit this freedom of expression?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 1:53 pm
Wally Keeler
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 2:02 pm

FREE SPEECH is a sustainable decongestant against the S.O.R.E virus (Suppression, Oppression, Repression of Expression).

FREE SPEECH serving progress since the Enlightenment.

Gerinator
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 12:05 pm

Rob it is totally unreasonable of you to forget the victims in this situation. In effect your right to punch me in the nose ends at the tip of my nose; the virus knows no such boundary. It is not justifiable for person A to knowingly go out, mix and mingle with person B, without knowing that each other has been vaccinated. Even so, the vaccinated individuals may still be carriers hence the continued ‘mask up and stay 6 feet away’. We are in this stay-at-home scenario because folks have refused the premise above; and there are industrial sectors that have refused the premise above. We’ll continue into 2022 if this lunacy does not abate. The onus falls on people, yes better processes and procedures could certainly helped but in the end it is people who will (or will not) cooperate that will decide when this pandemic ends.

Rob
Reply to  Gerinator
13 April 2021 1:00 pm

Please define victims? I suspect your definition is much more narrow than mine.

Gerinator
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 2:52 pm

Dead = Victim; Families missing parents, children = Victims; Leaders (young and old) that are no longer here = Victims. Are there others that might fall into ‘Victim’ bucket, sure there are BUT THEY AIN’T DEAD.

Cindy
Reply to  Gerinator
13 April 2021 1:21 pm

There is a mountain of evidence that masks do not prevent the transmission of any virus and there are no studies showing lockdowns work. In fact lockdowns are doing more harm that the virus and masks are grossly affecting our natural immunity. They are dangerous. Our government’s handling of the upper respiratory virus is what needs to be addressed. You can learn more here.
https://gbdeclaration.org/why-was-the-declaration-written/

Informed
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 2:41 pm

Maybe you need an unmasked guided tour of some ICU units?

Gerinator
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 3:02 pm

Maybe not enuf evidence for you but sure beats not wearing a mask and letting loose on society, friends and families that didn’t ask to be in ‘your’ experiment. You imply that herd immunity, own immunities are sufficient and that current methods/processes are not working. Maybe so but I do know that this would be far more tragic than the current 23K dead in Canada (2.9Million global) if Canada and the World had not taken these precautionary measures; these stats are ‘real’ not fake news and contradict your implied remedies of: no masks, no lockdowns and solely a respiratory problem.

Conor
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 3:05 pm

Cindy I think you might be a few fries short of a McHappy Meal? I suspect you have been watching Fox new too much. Perhaps you should get out of the house more often instead of surfing the internet.

JimT
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 3:27 pm

If masks “do not prevent the transmission of any virus”, then how to explain the government’s own declaration:

Weekly influenza reports
March 20, 2021 (weeks 10-11)

All indicators of influenza activity remain exceptionally low for this time of year…no evidence of community circulation of influenza despite continued testing…Influenza activity has remained below the threshold required to declare the start of the 2020-21 influenza season. (my emphasis).

Something is sure preventing common floo bugs from circulating this year, and I would place a reasonable bet that masks had a lot to do with it.

Would be an interesting coincidence otherwise.

Last edited 26 days ago by JimT
Mrs. Anonymous
Reply to  JimT
13 April 2021 3:48 pm

A gentle reminder that correlation is not causation.

Gerinator
Reply to  Mrs. Anonymous
13 April 2021 10:00 pm

Maybe so but probabilities, given the evidence at hand, are also a reminder that you don’t take a long walk on a short pier.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Mrs. Anonymous
13 April 2021 11:57 pm

Logic is irrelevant for many posters.

Last edited 25 days ago by Ken Strauss
Ken Strauss
Reply to  JimT
13 April 2021 11:53 pm

JimT, I don’t know how much masks reduce flu transmission but mask wearing is not the only change from previous years. Surely other changes — working from home, hand washing, warmer Winter, lack of parties, no dining out, social distancing, school closures, church closures, more people getting flu shots — might have had a significant impact. Why do you ignore these changes? Incidentally your excerpt from an unknown source doesn’t even mention masks so it is irrelevant to your assertion.

ben burd
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 4:24 pm

Would you please cite the scientific studies that prove this or else you might be thought of as a covidiot!

Last edited 26 days ago by Ben
Keith Oliver
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 9:29 pm

Cindy

Went to the web site you suggested. Could only find a host of generalizations, a reference to a Great Barrington Declaration, but no way to access, read ànd evaluate the declaration itself.

We continue to learn about this virus and it’s behaviour. Every time the rules are broken there is an upserge. The Pew Charitable Trust did a survey recently and found that the better educated and wealthier were more inclined to break the rules because they knew better.

I but my trust in experts like Drs Tam and Fauci. In the end there will be a review and an accounting. In the meantime I follow the rules.

Last edited 26 days ago by Keith Oliver
M.Harrison
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 11:13 pm

There is a bigger “mountain” that supports exactly the opposite. ‘It’s garbage’: Infectious disease expert debunks ‘Facts Not Fear’ COVID-19 flyer | CTV News

Mrs. Anonymous
Reply to  M.Harrison
14 April 2021 12:33 pm

Over the past year I have seen those and similar media articles regarding suggested safety protocols. The issue I have had however, is that when I research the actual studies referenced in the articles, the research doesn’t match the bold claims of the headline. Why it’s almost like the headlines could be considered clickbait! While I understand why randomized trials may not be available, other issues like incredibly small sample sizes (n=4 …good grief), unrealistic lab conditions, and multiple uses of the word “probably”and “may” don’t inspire confidence in the research. And some of those meta analyses…yikes, talk about lazy workmanship.

While I comply with the regulations, I am confounded that so many become militant regarding masking and many of the rules which at this time don’t appear to be based on good science and/or questionable research .

M.Harrison
Reply to  Mrs. Anonymous
14 April 2021 5:16 pm

Look at little more carefully… far from the truth, unless of course you are referring to the so called “evidence” this group thinks they have. They need to get over themselves and go volunteer where they can actually make a difference.

Downtowner
Reply to  Cindy
16 April 2021 7:00 pm

Lock downs appeared to work in China. Is
that study enough.

Cindy
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 12:31 pm

There are nefarious drivers at play here and it will be a very big pill for folks to swallow that government is lying to the people of Canada.

Informed
Reply to  Cindy
15 April 2021 12:01 pm

You help me better understand how Trump had so many followers

marilyn
13 April 2021 8:24 am

This guy is wacko. There is a deadly virus out there. These people do not have the right to endanger the lives of others.

JimT
Reply to  marilyn
13 April 2021 12:34 pm

Yes, this is more than just a serious strain of floo, but only “deadly” for about 2 individuals in every 100 who catch it, and most of those are elderly folk in nursing homes. The other 98% recover, or weren’t even aware they were infected.

Total cases recorded in Canada…1,076,176
Total deaths to date in Canada…….. 23,383
Percentage deaths…………………… 2.17%

Last edited 26 days ago by JimT
M.Harrison
Reply to  JimT
13 April 2021 11:54 pm

And that’s okay? A population much larger than the entire town of Cobourg are dead and that’s okay, because many were in nursing homes? That’s ageism. Check out the latest stats because now the hospitals are full of younger ages as well. Add to the death rates the many stories of people who are having difficulty recovering, there are many. Some have not been able to return to work for months, some have to use walkers, some have had to have transplants. Not something you would wish for, so do not downplay the devastation of this virus you can catch simply from being in the same room as someone with it. May you not have to experience what these people have..

Liz
13 April 2021 7:52 am

It would be informative to know if there is an organization behind this. That it is not really about the virus but funding anarchists to disrupt. Look at the 30’s and the presence of political parties behind riots then. Without control there is no society. Most of the people looked like they could not rub 2 cents together and would be willing to sell out to such a political agenda. Or are they just people seeking attention. A need for educating was raised for a different issue perhaps these people should be educated. But who is behind this?

Last edited 26 days ago by Liz
Rob
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 10:24 am

Liz – “Most people looked like they could not rub 2 cents together..” that’s quite judgmental. Perhaps some of them are now out of work as a result of the crushing economic loss due to lockdowns.

Peaceful protests with homemade signs, do not really equate to funded anarchists…

Liz
Reply to  Rob
13 April 2021 12:57 pm

Rob – I am not judgmental, I am stating a fact. Please read my whole post in which I stated as they look like they can’t rub 2 cents together they may be open to accepting monetary inducements to protest from an organization that may be behind this. For over a year many of these same people have been out in front of Victoria Hall just like it is their job. The leader was going on in the video about his employer. There are many paid protestors today Rob for a variety of causes.
As to home made signs watch other protests and that is what you will see, home made signs. Their peaceful protest without masks leaves them vulnerable to COVID 19 and anybody that comes in contact with them.

Last edited 26 days ago by Liz
Cindy
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 12:21 pm

I urge the people of Cobourg to wake up to the corruption that is currently at play. A class action suit has been filed against the provincial and federal governments for crimes against humanity. Medical experts across the world are raising alarm bells and they are being silcenced. Your government is lying to you.
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/472827d6-3b15-4c33-834a-970e550df358/downloads/Amikwabi%20vs..pdf?ver=1616597150360

Last edited 26 days ago by Cindy
Cindy
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 1:08 pm

I’ve already seen two very quick thumbs down on this which means you didn’t bother to read the statement of claim. You get a D for effort.

M.Harrison
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 11:58 pm

See reply to Cindy if you are interested in expert opinion. As for the organizations as mentioned above, W5 recently produced a show on those brainwashed by “conspiracy theory believers”. Watch it, it is informative.

Kyle
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 1:21 pm

Liz

In video of this event and on other occasions a number of these individuals are waving QAnon flags and sporting QAnon T shirts etc. That speaks volumes about their warped views and ideals. They are organized and use social media and encryption apps to spread their false conspiracy theories and rhetoric. Do not discount their potential for hate and violence. The US has seen what they are capable of.

Liz
Reply to  Kyle
13 April 2021 1:26 pm

I don’t Kyle – why would you think I did discount this?

Kyle
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 1:58 pm

I meant others

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Kyle
23 April 2021 9:50 am

Those are not QANON flags. https://youtu.be/qh_qO3JVwdg

Liz
13 April 2021 6:24 am

Anyone refusing to identify themselves to a police officer is breaking the law. They should be taken into custody where they should remain until they identify themselves, are issued a ticket for their offenses. The arrogance of that group makes me wish for the days of the paddy wagon.

With the deaths of people due to this virus there is no one that has a right to spread such nonsense. They should be taken to the hospital wards first hand to view the sick and dying, with their mouths first taped and to witness the grief of people as they lose their loved ones. How can anyone be so callous?

Should they return I hope they will be promptly arrested not just fined. Enough is enough.

JimT
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 12:46 pm

“Anyone refusing to identify themselves
to a police officer is breaking the law.”

Sorry, Liz. It hasn’t quite reached that point yet. Maybe soon, at the rate we are going, if no one objects in the meantime:

“In Canada, a police officer does not have the authority to randomly require an individual to stop and identify themselves or to answer police questions…a police officer must first have a legal basis for the request. If the officer has reasonable grounds to believe the person in question has committed an offence, the officer may arrest…”
https://www.lawnow.org/what-do-i-have-to-tell-the-police-if-they-stop-me/#:~:text=In%20Canada%2C%20a%20police%20officer,legal%20basis%20for%20the%20request.

Liz
Reply to  JimT
13 April 2021 1:01 pm

It wasn’t random Jim – they were gathering without masks in a group larger than 5. Please read up on throwing carding out the window and the subsequent greatly increased crime. Respect for police – to serve and protect – who are you going to call? They are there to ensure your safety. They had a legal basis – their gathering is illegal in that number and especially without masks. I was downtown earlier and there was also a woman running around without a mask hugging and kissing on them.

Last edited 26 days ago by Liz
JimT
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 1:14 pm

You can dream of living in a police state if you want, but that doesn’t alter the fact that you are wrong by stating that “Anyone refusing to identify themselves to a police officer is breaking the law.”

That is a very dangerous misconception to spread and I object assiduously to seeing it reported as if it were established fact. It just isn’t, and you should be careful what kind of irresponsible [stuff] you post for all to see.

Liz
Reply to  JimT
13 April 2021 1:22 pm

Get real Jim, and why don’t you go and live in an area plagued by drugs and shootings. Some housing projects used to be a good place for financially overburdened parents to raise their children. Police when they see lawbreaking going on have every right to ask for a person’s identity as they are trying to issue them a deserved fine for illegal activity. If they have good reason to suspect you are breaking the law they have every right to ask for your identification. And this was the case here.

JimT
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 1:55 pm

you are still wrong by stating that “Anyone refusing to identify themselves to a police officer is breaking the law.”

Liz
Reply to  JimT
13 April 2021 2:11 pm

The context I used it in is not wrong Jim – I stated as the person was breaking the law they must identify themselves. Do you not have anything better to do or are you just intent on being right?

Cindy
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 2:05 pm

Liz, these people have done nothing wrong. They are peacefully protesting which is their right as set out in the Canadian Bill of Rights. What is the government and police are wrong? Is that possible?

ben burd
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 4:29 pm

Did nothing wrong??????? They gathered in a group of more than 5 they were not on essential business and some obstructed the Police during their enquiries. Sounds pretty wrong to me and for you to ignore these facts and even justify them makes me think the Cops arrested the wrong person!

Bryan
Reply to  Liz
13 April 2021 5:58 pm

JimT is correct on this Liz.
Except in regards to vehicle offenses, the police do not have a statutory right to ask for identification.
The individual however has the right to refuse, as provided by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Liz
Reply to  Bryan
13 April 2021 11:10 pm

Not you too Bryan – take what I wrote in context to the situation of which I described – yes it is a shame the police are now knee capped it reflects in the crime stats but then the people living in those areas of crime should protest. Only in the days of poltiically correct has this come to be – protect the criminal assume the police are out to get you, not just doing their job which includes information gathering and crime prevention. But in the situation I was speaking of the police were trying to give they guy a ticket for illegal gathering and he thought he was above the law. He was required to identify himself.

Bryan
Reply to  Liz
14 April 2021 12:55 am

Liz:
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms became the supreme law of the land in April 1982. It is not, as you wrote, that “…the police are now knee capped….”.
The “context” that you are concerned about is not relevant. The law is the law until the federal parliament changes it or the courts rule otherwise.

Last edited 25 days ago by Bryan
Liz
Reply to  Bryan
14 April 2021 11:01 am

I will abstain from further argument Bryan, I have made my points which you refuse to accept of the context in which I made the comment. No point in talking to deaf ears.

The Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms – Myself I think it is a shame. I know someone now approaching 70 who grew up in a notorious area of Toronto through the 50s and 60s. He said he and his friends would be stopped from time to time by police, asked for their names and where they were going. He never nor his friends had a problem with it. They weren’t doing anything wrong. They had a respect for the police and knew they needed to do their jobs which entailed keeping the neighbourhood safe. King and Wardell were there under cover. Through the years he quickly recognized undercover cars and officers anywhere, good to know if you were feeling threatened.

The Charter of Human Rights has weakened that aspect greatly and now these areas are totally out of control. Ones most avoid. But you are welcome these days to go walk in them. That particular neighbourhood was much safer then.

Last edited 25 days ago by Liz
Wally Keeler
Reply to  Bryan
14 April 2021 12:09 am

I concur with JimT and Bryan because they get it and are correct.

Liz
Reply to  Wally Keeler
14 April 2021 10:43 am

Get what Wally? The situation I described is the protester was breaking the law therefore required to identify himself as the police officer required to give him a ticket which he richly deserved. So you are saying should a person break into your home, wrestle you to fhe floor from your mobile device, bash your head off the floor and the police attend he has a right to walk away and not give his name?
that is the context we are referring to giving a more extreme example so perhaps you will get it?

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Liz
14 April 2021 11:48 am

It’s ok 2b stubborn.

Liz
Reply to  Wally Keeler
14 April 2021 11:53 am

I agree Wally, sometimes you can be very stubborn clinging on to a moot point.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Liz
14 April 2021 5:26 pm

I am persistent. The point that I, Jim and Bryan made is NOT moot.

Rob
Reply to  Wally Keeler
14 April 2021 12:01 pm

Wally – are you sure you don’t want to quote Section 1 again? Charter Rights are not absolute remember…

Bryan
Reply to  Rob
14 April 2021 5:26 pm

Good point Rob. Charter section 1 does provide some exceptions. However, the onus is on those seeking the exemption to prove that the exemption meets the Charter exemption requirements.
More often than not, the exemption seeker assumes they will get the exemption and proceeds with their “law”. In the interim before the courts rule on the validity of their exemption claim, their “law” can result in significant hardship.

Wally Keeler
Reply to  Rob
14 April 2021 5:53 pm

I walk down King Street circa 1966, 8pm, an unmarked car pulls up to the curb, a plainclohes man gets out, shows me id that he is RCMP and orders me to get in the back seat and shoves me in. They drive me around to Swayne street for search and interrogation. Take off my shoes and empty my pockets. They did this again 2 weeks later and a third time a month later. They were expecting to find drugs, but I never carried. I never trafficked. They wanted me to be an informer. I declined. Foster Russell invited me to write an article about it. I did. They stopped their arbitrary harassment. Thankfully the Charter came along and prohibited this, especially Section 1. They felt they had the right to pick up and search hippies because they had long hair. That was unreasonable.

Informed
Reply to  Wally Keeler
15 April 2021 12:05 pm

They confiscated my beer. Im sure they poured it out lol

JimT
Reply to  Wally Keeler
14 April 2021 3:40 pm

Thank you Bryan and Wally. I have driven myself to exasperation trying make the simple, logical point to Liz that she is wrong in her blatant assertion, context or no context.

Bryan
Reply to  JimT
14 April 2021 5:17 pm

JimT:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink!
Some people seems to have difficulty separating the authority (power) of the police to detain/arrest and the person’s Charter right to remain silent and not provide identification. Two very different things.

marya
Reply to  JimT
17 April 2021 4:32 am

There can be blatant assertions- we have been in a State of Emergency since early April.

Kyle
Reply to  Bryan
14 April 2021 5:08 pm

There are requirements under the Trespass to Property Act in Ontario for a person to identify themselves or be arrested. Also the Liquor Licence Act of Ontario. To name just a couple. Be very careful what FREE legal advice you hand out.

Bryan
Reply to  Kyle
14 April 2021 11:21 pm

The same applies to you Kyle. Note that I am not providing legal advise to anyone. I am stating my understanding of some of the provisions of the Canadian Charter. Just as you stated your understanding of two Ontario laws.
The Charter is the supreme law in Canada. It trumps all others, with some very specific exceptions.
Provinces sometimes enact laws that may be (are) contrary to the Charter and then wait to see if there is any pushback. You have not provided any evidence that the identification provisions in the two Ontario acts you cited have been approved by the courts.

Kyle
Reply to  Bryan
15 April 2021 7:29 am

The Trespass to Property Act and the Liquor Licence Act have been in in force in Ontario since 1990 and courts do not “approve” legislation.

i guess this begs the question, “ Are you a QAnon believer”?

Bryan
Reply to  Kyle
15 April 2021 1:43 pm

Kyle:

Please provide the sections of the trespass act and liquor license act that require a person to identify themselves.

You are correct that the courts do not “approve” legislation. This is done by parliament and the senate. In this context, “approve” was a poor word choice.

As outlined on the Federal Department of Justice website:
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/ccs-ajc/01.html

“The courts interpret and apply the Constitution, as well as legislation passed by both levels of government. They also develop and apply the common law.”

“The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though appearing to be law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose”

The net result is that the courts decide if laws are valid. As also indicated, the courts develop common law.

This is basic “civics 101”. A basic awareness of how Canadian law comes into being and the rights and freedoms that people in Canada have.

How has this anything to do with QAnon?

Last edited 24 days ago by Bryan
Kyle
Reply to  Bryan
15 April 2021 4:38 pm

Since you have “civics 101” and are not able to look up Provincial Statutes;

Liquor Licence Act48 If a police officer finds a person apparently in contravention of this Act or apparently in contravention of a prescribed provision of the regulations and the person refuses to give his or her name and address or there are reasonable grounds to believe that the name or address given is false, the police officer may arrest the person without warrant.

Trespass to Property Act

10 Where a police officer believes on reasonable and probable grounds that a person has been in contravention of section 2 and has made fresh departure from the premises, and the person refuses to give his or her name and address, or there are reasonable and probable grounds to believe that the name or address given is false, the police officer may arrest the person without warrant. R.S.O. 1990, 

Bryan
Reply to  Kyle
15 April 2021 9:25 pm

Kyle: You wrote: “…you…are not able to look up Provincial Statutes”. You have made a very poor assumption. I am a very capable researcher and quite able to look up an Ontario statute. You made the claim so the onus is on you to provide the supporting material. The two sections you referenced deal with arrest. They are almost identical and give the police the authority to arrest (optional) a person if they have reasonable grounds to believe the person is in contravention of the act AND the person refuses to provide valid identification. Note that BOTH conditions must be met.     There is nothing in either act that requires a person to provide identification. The police will ask for ID as a matter of process. These sections provide the police with an actionable remedy without being contrary to the Charter. The person’s charter right to not provide ID and to remain silent are both intact and not contravened by these Ontario laws. As theses Ontario laws do not contravene the Charter there is no reason for a Charter exemption and no reason for the courts to act. Ontario Liquor License Act Arrest without warrant Section  48: If a police officer finds a person apparently in contravention of this Act or apparently in contravention of a prescribed provision of the regulations and the person refuses to give his or her name and address or there are reasonable grounds to believe that the name or address given is false, the police officer may arrest the person without warrant. R.S.O. 1990, c. L.19, s. 48; 1994, c. 37, s. 16 Ontario Trespass to Property Act Arrest without warrant off premises Section 10: Where a police officer believes on reasonable and probable grounds that a person has been in contravention of section 2 and has made fresh departure from the… Read more »

Cindy
Reply to  JimT
13 April 2021 2:02 pm

Great response Jim. “It’s very difficult to unring the bell once you’ve triggered fear. To tell people really here’s what data is actually saying is not enough because they won’t believe you. People’s fear takes over, their willingness to listen and it creates this division that lasts”. – Stanford Prof Bhattacharya

Gerinator
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 10:12 pm

Ironic that you cite this statement coz when I read it I thought you could be very well speaking of yourself and others that believe in these, less than factual, scenarios; AND yet profess with vigor their truths, their beliefs and their fear.

jimq26
Reply to  JimT
16 April 2021 5:06 pm

This just confirmed at around 4:30pm April 16th – “New Enforcement Measures

  • For the first time in Ontario since the pandemic started, police officers will have the authority to require people to provide their home address and purpose for not being at their residence.
  • Police will have the ability to stop vehicles to inquire about and reason for people leaving their homes.”
Michelle Cameron
12 April 2021 8:14 pm

I really think that if that many officers from the CPS have nothing more important to do than that on a Saturday afternoon , my tax dollars are being sorely wasted.

Informed
Reply to  Michelle Cameron
12 April 2021 9:00 pm

You are right about the taxpayer dollars being wasted but the protestors dont care about taxpayers dollars. They are the ones responsible for wasting tax dollars with the disrespectful behaviour, antics and illegal gathering.

Michelle Cameron
Reply to  Michelle Cameron
12 April 2021 11:24 pm

25 max protesters? If they want to expose themselves how does that affect the safety and security of the population in Cobourg. Just walk away or around. No need to spend 10,000 in one afternoon.

marilyn
Reply to  Michelle Cameron
13 April 2021 9:37 am

The law is the law and they are not above the law. If I can’t gather in large groups for the safety of everyone, then they don’t have the right either.

Frenchy
Reply to  Michelle Cameron
13 April 2021 3:26 am

Were you one of the 7 that got busted Michelle, or did you manage to escape?

Michelle Cameron
Reply to  Michelle Cameron
13 April 2021 9:44 am

No I don’t support the cause of those protesters but I do respect the right to organize and protest. Seriously. They were no threat to public health or safety. Most of us were at home Saturday. Most of us accept the opinions of public health officials. However, Canadians have the right to peacefully object without being intimidated. I would hate to see this escalate. There is really no need. That is really not where I want my tax dollars to go.

Clare
Reply to  Michelle Cameron
13 April 2021 11:13 am

They are not just endangering their own health. If any one catches covid in their group, then everyone else they may contact in any way becomes susceptible.

jimq26
12 April 2021 7:27 pm

Well done – Thanks for the notice John. We have good leadership who have the best interest of Cobourg citizens at heart. Excellent presentation! Down with the covidiots!!!!!!!!!!

Cindy
Reply to  jimq26
13 April 2021 12:33 pm

With all due respect, I believe we have good leadership but they are misinformed. Here is some information for you.
https://gbdeclaration.org

Cindy
Reply to  Cindy
13 April 2021 1:09 pm

Again….a quick thumbs down without reading. Happy to engage in debate versus a click on your keyboard.

Informed
Reply to  Kyle
13 April 2021 4:24 pm

Thanks. I read this link you provided and it confirmed why I didnt need to read the one provided by Cindy.

Kyle
Reply to  Informed
13 April 2021 4:37 pm

NP….we have to remember they they are the followers of the horned helmet, face painted QAnon Shaman who stormed the US Capital building and turns out he is some sorry individual with mental health issues that lives with his mother.